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damn. from voz
Is Cis A Dis? And other air castles to storm… « FemmEssay
a cis feminist making a damn strong point about cis privilege.
Is Cis A Dis? And other air castles to storm… « FemmEssay
a cis feminist making a damn strong point about cis privilege.
I don't think trans people are being bigoted and mean. I think YOU are. You don't seem to understand that distinction.
Oh, I definitely am better than you, dearie. (See, that's condescension, too, from me.)
But the thing is, your accusation was that I think I'm better than you because I'm trans and you're cis. Not because I'm better than you because I'm smart and you're stupider than shit.
But the thing is, your accusation was that I think I'm better than you because I'm trans and you're cis. Not because I'm better than you because I'm smart and you're stupider than shit.
So you think I am bigoted against cisgender people, is that what you're saying?
I don't think cis people are necessarily bigoted or stupid either. I just think YOU are.
I don't think cis people are necessarily bigoted or stupid either. I just think YOU are.
Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.
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lady-alyria.livejournal.com
2009-08-14 09:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Really, I recall that conversation ending with you apologizing after someone pointed out as a BLACK woman I might have some small idea of what it's like the fear the police. But noooooo...since I'm cis I have no idea what it's like NOT to have the police on my side. Therefore my opinions on the whole situation must come from a place of privilege and therefore be completely invalid.
That's funny. Because when you want to point out my "stupidity" you remind me that I'm "cis" as if the two words are interchangeable. And you just admitted you do that to other cis people, even the ones you consider friends when they "step outta line".
it's more like she doesn't need to remind me of my cis privilege by calling me cis unless I fuck up and seem to forget how privileged I am and wave it around. Just like until I do something full of white privilege, no one needs to be like 'nice privilege, white lady'
Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.
kynn.livejournal.com
2009-08-14 09:36 pm (UTC)(link)
You're recalling it wrong, because I didn't apologize at all. In fact, I said that I knew from the beginning that you're a black woman, because I clicked through on your profiles.
The thread certainly didn't end with me apologizing.
So let me see, though:
Really, I recall that conversation ending with you apologizing after someone pointed out as a BLACK woman I might have some small idea of what it's like the fear the police.
Oh, so basically you're saying that as a black person, you might have insights into racism that I, as a white person, lack.
Which is sensible.
And yet you say that when I, as a trans person, discuss cissexism and transphobia -- and say that trans people have a better understanding of it than cis people, blinded by their own cis privilege -- you call that "bigotry" from me.
By this post, you're admitting that, yeah, sometimes the identity of the person speaking may very well make a difference. Even though in other places you accuse me of bigotry for using the very same principle.
Since you'll argue that you're not doing this, because you're stupid, let me show you exactly what's happening here.
Look at your statement here:
But noooooo...since I'm cis I have no idea what it's like NOT to have the police on my side. Therefore my opinions on the whole situation must come from a place of privilege and therefore be completely invalid.
So let's pretend that you and I are arguing about something -- say, POC trans women getting the police called on them -- and I assume you're white. (I didn't, but let's pretend.) And you say, "[some stuff]", and I say "that's wrong and messed up, whitey."
If you then say "ah, but I'm not white! I'm black!" does that make what you said suddenly valid? According to what you wrote above -- i.e., your views on the police are valid because you are black -- the validity of your statements are enhanced due to your race.
And this isn't something I argue against; I do accept that. I certainly have white privilege, and it seriously limits my understanding of racism. However, when trans people say that they understand cis privilege better than trans people, you cry BIGOTRY repeatedly.
You are a hypocrite, and you're stupid.
The thread certainly didn't end with me apologizing.
So let me see, though:
Really, I recall that conversation ending with you apologizing after someone pointed out as a BLACK woman I might have some small idea of what it's like the fear the police.
Oh, so basically you're saying that as a black person, you might have insights into racism that I, as a white person, lack.
Which is sensible.
And yet you say that when I, as a trans person, discuss cissexism and transphobia -- and say that trans people have a better understanding of it than cis people, blinded by their own cis privilege -- you call that "bigotry" from me.
By this post, you're admitting that, yeah, sometimes the identity of the person speaking may very well make a difference. Even though in other places you accuse me of bigotry for using the very same principle.
Since you'll argue that you're not doing this, because you're stupid, let me show you exactly what's happening here.
Look at your statement here:
But noooooo...since I'm cis I have no idea what it's like NOT to have the police on my side. Therefore my opinions on the whole situation must come from a place of privilege and therefore be completely invalid.
So let's pretend that you and I are arguing about something -- say, POC trans women getting the police called on them -- and I assume you're white. (I didn't, but let's pretend.) And you say, "[some stuff]", and I say "that's wrong and messed up, whitey."
If you then say "ah, but I'm not white! I'm black!" does that make what you said suddenly valid? According to what you wrote above -- i.e., your views on the police are valid because you are black -- the validity of your statements are enhanced due to your race.
And this isn't something I argue against; I do accept that. I certainly have white privilege, and it seriously limits my understanding of racism. However, when trans people say that they understand cis privilege better than trans people, you cry BIGOTRY repeatedly.
You are a hypocrite, and you're stupid.
No, you're cis AND stupid.
There is no way to remind someone that they are acting out of cis privilege and tossing around cissexism without telling them they are cis.
It's like (but not identical to) if you try to tell me I am being racist without ever addressing that I'm white.
There is no way to remind someone that they are acting out of cis privilege and tossing around cissexism without telling them they are cis.
It's like (but not identical to) if you try to tell me I am being racist without ever addressing that I'm white.
Even if you did something full of white privilege I still wouldn't say something like that to you. I don't blame you for being white, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with being white, so why would I use it as a derogatory term?
I have more respect for you than that, and I would hope that giving you reasons I thought you were exercising white privilege would make you re-examine whatever you were doing in a new light.
Like when half my friend's list couldn't see what was racist about the comic where the police officers shot the monkey. I didn't go, CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE YA WHITE MCWHITTIES! I explained why *I* thought it was racist, and realized people with entirely different life experiences than my own might see it different. Some of my friends got what I was saying and agreed it was racist. Some still didn't agree. I didn't demand they agree because I'm black and they are white and I'm the expert on what's racist and what isn't. I didn't think they were stupid. I just figured they didn't/couldn't see things the same way I did regarding that particular instance and moved on.
Have you noticed that every time you attempt to translate these issues into race ones to enlighten me it never works? My thought process is consistent if not popular with the far left.
I have more respect for you than that, and I would hope that giving you reasons I thought you were exercising white privilege would make you re-examine whatever you were doing in a new light.
Like when half my friend's list couldn't see what was racist about the comic where the police officers shot the monkey. I didn't go, CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE YA WHITE MCWHITTIES! I explained why *I* thought it was racist, and realized people with entirely different life experiences than my own might see it different. Some of my friends got what I was saying and agreed it was racist. Some still didn't agree. I didn't demand they agree because I'm black and they are white and I'm the expert on what's racist and what isn't. I didn't think they were stupid. I just figured they didn't/couldn't see things the same way I did regarding that particular instance and moved on.
Have you noticed that every time you attempt to translate these issues into race ones to enlighten me it never works? My thought process is consistent if not popular with the far left.
apologizing after someone pointed out as a BLACK woman I might have some small idea of what it's like the fear the police.
I'm not the one who said it, another person brought up that argument when they told you to check your white privilege. And after you apologized to me, I told you not to apologize to me just because I'm black. Then you called me names again.
And like in a post down below, my point wasn't that as a black person I'm the end all be all expert on racism. Though of course that's what you'd take from it because that's the way you think. My point was that you recognize no reality but your own, no experiences but your own. To the point that you would argue something as ridiculous as I couldn't possibly understand what it means to fear the police.
I'm not the one who said it, another person brought up that argument when they told you to check your white privilege. And after you apologized to me, I told you not to apologize to me just because I'm black. Then you called me names again.
And like in a post down below, my point wasn't that as a black person I'm the end all be all expert on racism. Though of course that's what you'd take from it because that's the way you think. My point was that you recognize no reality but your own, no experiences but your own. To the point that you would argue something as ridiculous as I couldn't possibly understand what it means to fear the police.
Yes, your thought processes are consistently stupid.
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maevele, why's this person your friend? You're usually a better judge of character.
maevele, why's this person your friend? You're usually a better judge of character.Have I called you white in a derogatory way, ever?
Yes. Brow beat her into defriending me. That's always the next step with you. If you can't silence me with insults, silence me by getting me kicked off her LJ. Don't forget to give shemale a talking to too, she for some strange reason sees value in me as a human being also.
shemale a talking to too, she for some strange reason sees value in me as a human being also. Wow, way to lie about what happened.
Did you forget that the posts are still out there and it's nothing like what you describe?
That, in fact, you demanded an apology for me, and got one, and then laughed in my face?
You're a fucking idiot. And you're quite transphobic.
(Also, never once did I say that you couldn't understand what it's like to fear the police. I said you couldn't understand what it's like to fear the police because of being trans, idiot.)
Did you forget that the posts are still out there and it's nothing like what you describe?
That, in fact, you demanded an apology for me, and got one, and then laughed in my face?
You're a fucking idiot. And you're quite transphobic.
(Also, never once did I say that you couldn't understand what it's like to fear the police. I said you couldn't understand what it's like to fear the police because of being trans, idiot.)
Have you ever called me out for being a racist asshat?
No -- and in fact you've praised me for NOT being racist toward you.
The fact that I haven't been racist enough for you to call out doesn't mean that when you say cissexist bullshit, you get to invoke some sort of false reciprocity and demand that I don't point out your cis privilege.
No -- and in fact you've praised me for NOT being racist toward you.
The fact that I haven't been racist enough for you to call out doesn't mean that when you say cissexist bullshit, you get to invoke some sort of false reciprocity and demand that I don't point out your cis privilege.
Someone's presence on my friendslist does not in any way imply an endorsement of their views, only that they say things i want to read for some reason. I'm pretty sure I added her originally for bein clever in Stupid Free, and I don't defriend people because I disagree with them, unless they are hopeless fucknuts.
I even give some people i think are hopeless fucknuts a bunch of chances, in case they get it eventually. I mean, I dropped shtrly et al, but have kept people more, um, problematic than Alyria has ever been.
I'm only going to be on sporadically, if at all, until next wednesday, so I won't be able to tell if this gets out of hand and make up a moderation policy to deal with it, so y'all fight amongst yerselves. nobody stab anybody.
I even give some people i think are hopeless fucknuts a bunch of chances, in case they get it eventually. I mean, I dropped shtrly et al, but have kept people more, um, problematic than Alyria has ever been.
I'm only going to be on sporadically, if at all, until next wednesday, so I won't be able to tell if this gets out of hand and make up a moderation policy to deal with it, so y'all fight amongst yerselves. nobody stab anybody.
I'll just stop interacting for now.
And no, I don't mean ZOMG U MUST SHUN THIS PERSON. Despite her paranoia otherwise.
And no, I don't mean ZOMG U MUST SHUN THIS PERSON. Despite her paranoia otherwise.
but it's still not derogatory in that usage, just a reminder. just a 'hey, yr speaking from privileged position' imo. It totally shouldn't be anyone else's job to point out the details of how I'm being privileged, if they've already done me the favor of pointing out I am speaking from privilege.
that's why I did the flawed maneuver of invoking a cis voice to say what trans women had said 1000000 times before.
Kynn makes alot of sense below. really. i knew this, and did it anyway, because, cis people are reliably stupid about trans women. Always.
For us, it's the cost of doing any business with you.
Kynn makes alot of sense below. really. i knew this, and did it anyway, because, cis people are reliably stupid about trans women. Always.
For us, it's the cost of doing any business with you.
That's because you are a far more lenient person than I. "You should know what you did" argument is for 1950s housewives. If I'm spending time around someone, I'm working on the assumption that they aren't out to hurt me, so if they do, I'm going to guess it's by mistake, and they aren't aware of it.
I don't think as a black person it's my job to educate white people about racism. But if they are part of my circle either they are worth my time, or they shouldn't be part of my circle anymore.
I don't think as a black person it's my job to educate white people about racism. But if they are part of my circle either they are worth my time, or they shouldn't be part of my circle anymore.
FYI, the blog itself has been taken down. I've copied the post, though, so if you want it for quoting purposes, lemme know. [Although I agree that the stuff about Autumn - and some of the comments afterwards - took the bloom off the rose a little, the gun analogy was powerfully written, and I'd like to be able to float it around, properly attributed, from time to time. Especially because my cis gay male boss is a jackass.]
Also, I was M.E. over there. ;c)
Also, I was M.E. over there. ;c)
... sad, too, because it means I didn't get to thwack that Jesse "*I* don't think trans women are men, but other people do, which means they have male privilege, which means they are de facto men in the movement" character the way he so richly deserved. I had a nice little rant all written out and everything.
Re: Hard words are often necessary ones..
maeveenroute.livejournal.com
2009-08-15 06:53 pm (UTC)(link)
Hard words are often necessary ones..
and it helps to have a privileged voice carry them.
Yeah, I'm honestly pretty ambivalent about having played "cis chick explains it all" on that thread, but once the OP started talking more about Oliver's tone than his argument, it seemed like it was going nowhere fast. :c/
But hell, this is coming from the one who had to tell my boss that paying the cis chick to co-facilitate the campus "trans people and allies" group and not paying the trans guy was seven kinds of fucked up. Because when the trans guy said it, he was just being greedy. So I should be used to saying obvious things to stupid people, even though they should have heard them the first hundred times, when the right people said them more eloquently and from personal experience.
Sorry. I'm vomiting my irritation all over this thread, and I probably shouldn't be, but I'm coming off a migraine (partially Femmessay induced) and having trouble thinking of a more coherent way to put this.
Bottom line, privilege is a signal-booster, and while it disgusts me that it should be necessary to use it that way, I feel like cis people who are capable of doing so non-stupidly have an obligation to amplify the message where needed.
(We also have an obligation to shut up and realize when it's being broadcast load and clear without our help, which takes more work, at least for me.)
and it helps to have a privileged voice carry them.
Yeah, I'm honestly pretty ambivalent about having played "cis chick explains it all" on that thread, but once the OP started talking more about Oliver's tone than his argument, it seemed like it was going nowhere fast. :c/
But hell, this is coming from the one who had to tell my boss that paying the cis chick to co-facilitate the campus "trans people and allies" group and not paying the trans guy was seven kinds of fucked up. Because when the trans guy said it, he was just being greedy. So I should be used to saying obvious things to stupid people, even though they should have heard them the first hundred times, when the right people said them more eloquently and from personal experience.
Sorry. I'm vomiting my irritation all over this thread, and I probably shouldn't be, but I'm coming off a migraine (partially Femmessay induced) and having trouble thinking of a more coherent way to put this.
Bottom line, privilege is a signal-booster, and while it disgusts me that it should be necessary to use it that way, I feel like cis people who are capable of doing so non-stupidly have an obligation to amplify the message where needed.
(We also have an obligation to shut up and realize when it's being broadcast load and clear without our help, which takes more work, at least for me.)
Re: Hard words are often necessary ones..
voz-latina.livejournal.com
2009-08-15 06:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, you have seen my posts on microwave lenses, haven't you?
If there's one thing I know, it's how and when to bust out the high gain equipment. Not getting myself nuked by the sidelobes is a lil harder.
Anyway, woman is engaging the trans men and not the trans women, for all the stupid, usual reasons.
Yeahs...who the fuck is your boss, and what is her major malfunction, anyway?
If there's one thing I know, it's how and when to bust out the high gain equipment. Not getting myself nuked by the sidelobes is a lil harder.
Anyway, woman is engaging the trans men and not the trans women, for all the stupid, usual reasons.
Yeahs...who the fuck is your boss, and what is her major malfunction, anyway?
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