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damn. from voz
Is Cis A Dis? And other air castles to storm… « FemmEssay
a cis feminist making a damn strong point about cis privilege.
Is Cis A Dis? And other air castles to storm… « FemmEssay
a cis feminist making a damn strong point about cis privilege.
oh lawd..why didn't you say so?
Cis fags are some of the most hateful close-minded people you ever did see. They are a bad scene for any civil rights endeavor.
Any way you can trade him in for somebody who treats trans women and men like, you know, human beings?
Cis fags are some of the most hateful close-minded people you ever did see. They are a bad scene for any civil rights endeavor.
Any way you can trade him in for somebody who treats trans women and men like, you know, human beings?
Feel free to share over at my LJ...I put up a cap, and you can also add your own.
I swear...cis homos and feminists are why we can't have nice things, and it gets old. Come on over, and fire when ready.
I swear...cis homos and feminists are why we can't have nice things, and it gets old. Come on over, and fire when ready.
So if she is cis and you DON'T call her cis lady, that means you ARE using it as an insult. ... You might not have said it directly, but by your own admission you've been using the word cis to point out a cisperson's ignorance.
No, no, no. Cis isn't an insult; it's a piece of information that is sometimes relevant.
If I (white person) said "Shut up, white lady," to another white person who was being annoying in some non-race-related way, I would be using "white" as an insult, because it wasn't relevant. Or, at least, it would be weird.![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
kynn doesn't say, "Hey cis lady, I like your non-trans-issues-related icon" (or whatever), because cisness has nothing to do with that situation.
But, situations when a cis person is being cissexist/transphobic/transmisogynist? Their cis status is relevant. There are things we do not and cannot understand because we are cis & there are specific privileges we get because we are cis. It's not weird/unnecessary/mean to bring it up. It's a vital piece of information.
At worst, it's a rebuke, like, "Hey, remember, you have this privilege." Or, "Hey, remember, you're not the unmarked 'normal' one." But that's not an attack; it's the truth.
Part of the reason it seems that way, more than "white" or "male," is that cissupremecists don't go around saying, "Cis people are the best! Cis = awesome!" They don't want to even admit trans people exist, so why would they identify with a word meaning not-trans? Cissexism is based on the idea that there are normal people, real women and real men, and then there are these other weirdos. So yeah, you don't hear a lot of use of the word outside of discussions of privilege, because to use it is to accept that cis and trans folk are equals.
(Here from Caoimhe's DW -- hope that's ok, maevele)
No, no, no. Cis isn't an insult; it's a piece of information that is sometimes relevant.
If I (white person) said "Shut up, white lady," to another white person who was being annoying in some non-race-related way, I would be using "white" as an insult, because it wasn't relevant. Or, at least, it would be weird.
kynn doesn't say, "Hey cis lady, I like your non-trans-issues-related icon" (or whatever), because cisness has nothing to do with that situation.But, situations when a cis person is being cissexist/transphobic/transmisogynist? Their cis status is relevant. There are things we do not and cannot understand because we are cis & there are specific privileges we get because we are cis. It's not weird/unnecessary/mean to bring it up. It's a vital piece of information.
At worst, it's a rebuke, like, "Hey, remember, you have this privilege." Or, "Hey, remember, you're not the unmarked 'normal' one." But that's not an attack; it's the truth.
Part of the reason it seems that way, more than "white" or "male," is that cissupremecists don't go around saying, "Cis people are the best! Cis = awesome!" They don't want to even admit trans people exist, so why would they identify with a word meaning not-trans? Cissexism is based on the idea that there are normal people, real women and real men, and then there are these other weirdos. So yeah, you don't hear a lot of use of the word outside of discussions of privilege, because to use it is to accept that cis and trans folk are equals.
(Here from Caoimhe's DW -- hope that's ok, maevele)
Unfortunately, of the two people who interviewed for the job, it was him and a cis granola-dyke with time-management issues. Terrifyingly, he was actually the better person for the job. *shudder*
I'll point out that he wasn't paying my co-mod ("J.") because last year, J. was being paid under a separate budget - that of the campus Transgender Liaison, rather than the budget for the discussion-group facilitators. However, Mr. Bossman cut the position of Trans Liaison (after using J. all year as Photocopy Boy, and thus deeming him unnecessary to campus queer life), and didn't write him into the discussion-group budget instead.
::headdesk::
Honestly, to call him hateful would be to credit him with too much clue.
I'll point out that he wasn't paying my co-mod ("J.") because last year, J. was being paid under a separate budget - that of the campus Transgender Liaison, rather than the budget for the discussion-group facilitators. However, Mr. Bossman cut the position of Trans Liaison (after using J. all year as Photocopy Boy, and thus deeming him unnecessary to campus queer life), and didn't write him into the discussion-group budget instead.
::headdesk::
Honestly, to call him hateful would be to credit him with too much clue.
Re: Hard words are often necessary ones..
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maeveenroute.livejournal.com
2009-08-15 07:28 pm (UTC)(link)
Well, you have seen my posts on microwave lenses, haven't you?
Don't think I've gotten that far in the archives yet. Too busy savoring the image of gloves+heels+skirt+lathe. ;c) (And popping Darvocet, instead of going to bed and stopping staring at the screen like a smart person.)
Don't think I've gotten that far in the archives yet. Too busy savoring the image of gloves+heels+skirt+lathe. ;c) (And popping Darvocet, instead of going to bed and stopping staring at the screen like a smart person.)
well, that is exactly why cis homos scare me. We are not human to them, just expendable and exploitable.
Re: Hard words are often necessary ones..
voz-latina.livejournal.com
2009-08-15 07:41 pm (UTC)(link)
smiles...I will definitely post piccys.
I can kinda see what you are saying, but there is a certain tone people take when they are attacking you and that's the tone she uses every time she talks to me. And calls me cis like a little kid would call someone a mean name.
In a discussion about privilege I don't need to be reminded of what I am. It's not like I forgot. And when I talk to people about white privilege I don't call them white in the same tone as she called me cis. Though I have seen black people that do, and they tend to think all white people are evil and racist.
In a discussion about privilege I don't need to be reminded of what I am. It's not like I forgot. And when I talk to people about white privilege I don't call them white in the same tone as she called me cis. Though I have seen black people that do, and they tend to think all white people are evil and racist.
Yeah, without getting into gruesome and derailing detail, I think I prefer situations in which I've experienced overt hatred to those in which I've experienced invisibilization. (<--- it's a word now!)
It's really the *personal touch* that counts, innit?
It's really the *personal touch* that counts, innit?
big time. At least you have the muzzle flash to aim for.
The invisible attacks are like nerve agents...you never know what hit ya til it's too late.
The invisible attacks are like nerve agents...you never know what hit ya til it's too late.
Cis fags are some of the most hateful close-minded people you ever did see.
If I ever uttered something like this about trans people every person in this thread both trans and cis would come down upon me like Armageddon. People have suggested defriending me for politely disagreeing with them. Yet you say something this hateful and people are nodding so hard their necks are about to break.
How is this any different than the assumptions made about trans people?
If I ever uttered something like this about trans people every person in this thread both trans and cis would come down upon me like Armageddon. People have suggested defriending me for politely disagreeing with them. Yet you say something this hateful and people are nodding so hard their necks are about to break.
How is this any different than the assumptions made about trans people?
It's called the cold, hard voice of experience of deadly oppression at the hands of cis homosexuals.
so, while my assessment is backed up by histiry, and has had frequent deadly consequences for trans women, you are simply barging in here with hurt feelings.
That is the difference.
so, while my assessment is backed up by histiry, and has had frequent deadly consequences for trans women, you are simply barging in here with hurt feelings.
That is the difference.
its about the relationship. voz has no institutional power to call in over a cis fag. with trans people, YOU do.
BUT CIS PPL HAVE FEELINGS TOO!
sorry had to beat her to the punch playing the cis card.
sorry had to beat her to the punch playing the cis card.
just covering the bases.
Now I understand. It's okay to stereotype and dehumanize as long as I don't have institutional power over that group. Wow, as a poor black queer female I can prejudge oodles of people!
I'm sorry, but bullshit.
Know who the system is made up of? Us. The system isn't just a bunch of rich white heterosexual cis-men. Every single person contributes to a system that oppresses so many. There aren't enough rich white heterosexual cis-men in the world to keep everyone down. One minority keeps down the other and vice versa. Buying into this crap is what keeps the system running.
Maybe Voz doesn't have any institutional power, but maybe someone that reads this thread does. Maybe next time they are interviewing people for positions somewhere in the back of their mind they remember what Voz said and even though they can't put their finger on why, the gay man that applied for the job just doesn't seem the "right fit".
You can't just be like "I'm a victim to the big bad system and therefore not responsible for what I say or do" when your actions perpetuate the big bad system.
I'm sorry, but bullshit.
Know who the system is made up of? Us. The system isn't just a bunch of rich white heterosexual cis-men. Every single person contributes to a system that oppresses so many. There aren't enough rich white heterosexual cis-men in the world to keep everyone down. One minority keeps down the other and vice versa. Buying into this crap is what keeps the system running.
Maybe Voz doesn't have any institutional power, but maybe someone that reads this thread does. Maybe next time they are interviewing people for positions somewhere in the back of their mind they remember what Voz said and even though they can't put their finger on why, the gay man that applied for the job just doesn't seem the "right fit".
You can't just be like "I'm a victim to the big bad system and therefore not responsible for what I say or do" when your actions perpetuate the big bad system.
The only think I feel is disappointment. And maybe some anger at the hypocrisy.
Re: Hard words are often necessary ones..
maeveenroute.livejournal.com
2009-08-15 11:23 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh! You meant *literal* microwave lenses. Well, hot damn.
Also, I missed this the first time around:
who the fuck is your boss, and what is her major malfunction, anyway?
... but I expect by now you won't be wanting the list. ;c)
[This, btw, is Boss 1. Boss 2 is Deaf Professor Lady, who is a total rockstar.]
Also, I missed this the first time around:
who the fuck is your boss, and what is her major malfunction, anyway?
... but I expect by now you won't be wanting the list. ;c)
[This, btw, is Boss 1. Boss 2 is Deaf Professor Lady, who is a total rockstar.]
She does not believe in institutional power
voz-latina.livejournal.com
2009-08-15 11:52 pm (UTC)(link)
nor does she believe in privilege. So, she cannot accurately understand or reply in any meaningful way to anything you or I say. This is why she is talking about hypotheticals as trumping the systemic amnd specific reality of cis homo on trans discrimination discussed here.
To her, talking about cis gay on trans hate is pointless, because, when a gay man exploits a trans man, our kicking and screaming aboput it here needs to be called out, not the original discrimination with very real effects because she is more interested in starting pointless shit than addressing real problems.
ignore her, and she will go away to deny trans lives elsewhere in favor of butthurt gay dude feeeeelllinngs.
To her, talking about cis gay on trans hate is pointless, because, when a gay man exploits a trans man, our kicking and screaming aboput it here needs to be called out, not the original discrimination with very real effects because she is more interested in starting pointless shit than addressing real problems.
ignore her, and she will go away to deny trans lives elsewhere in favor of butthurt gay dude feeeeelllinngs.
"poor black queer female" you forgot to mention your also an olympic gymnast of cis privilege. Those were some fancy back flips. but no I do not believe that a homophobe is going to listen to a woman who is queer and trans and decide to bring their homophobia into the workplace because of what she said.
and she wasn't "keeping another minority down" she was calling out ppl who share the experience of being queer for their cis and male privilege. thats pretty different from you saying something transphobic.
and she wasn't "keeping another minority down" she was calling out ppl who share the experience of being queer for their cis and male privilege. thats pretty different from you saying something transphobic.
She wasn't calling out anyone, unless she knows all gay cismen in the world personally.
Re: She does not believe in institutional power
lady-alyria.livejournal.com
2009-08-16 01:04 am (UTC)(link)
I do believe in institutional power and privilege.
But other than that, you are right. Short of me having massive brain damage I am no more likely to see things your way than I would a bunch of red necks. Because you all stink of the same hatred, petty judgments and bigotry. You just use different terminology to propagate the same tripe.
But other than that, you are right. Short of me having massive brain damage I am no more likely to see things your way than I would a bunch of red necks. Because you all stink of the same hatred, petty judgments and bigotry. You just use different terminology to propagate the same tripe.
Nobody is cis and male privileged unless we've experienced it personally.
this is why its so important for us to always record our experiences in the International Registry of Cisgendered Persons.
this is why its so important for us to always record our experiences in the International Registry of Cisgendered Persons.
Agreed. Needing to register and carry cis approved papers is what being T is all about.
and nothing drives that home like a gay cis man telling a trans person to bend over and take it like a good lil subordinate to his power. Except a misguided cis woman privileging hypothetical gay butthurt over a trans man who got robbed out of a year's income.
They are gonna yank my papers for this...unless the cis homos legislate us out of existence first.
oh wait, that has already happened here in Maine. My bad.
and nothing drives that home like a gay cis man telling a trans person to bend over and take it like a good lil subordinate to his power. Except a misguided cis woman privileging hypothetical gay butthurt over a trans man who got robbed out of a year's income.
They are gonna yank my papers for this...unless the cis homos legislate us out of existence first.
oh wait, that has already happened here in Maine. My bad.
Re: She does not believe in institutional power
estrobutch.livejournal.com
2009-08-16 11:20 am (UTC)(link)
just rednecks? what about hicks, hillbillies and white trash?
I have family in southern appalachia that I give more credit that they' be able do grasp concept of cis privilege than I do you. So why don't you back off the assumptions of how they smell?
I have family in southern appalachia that I give more credit that they' be able do grasp concept of cis privilege than I do you. So why don't you back off the assumptions of how they smell?
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