maevele | damn. from voz

Pointing out that you are being oppressive and exercising cis privilege not the same as "writing people off because of who and what they are."

You are clueless. You don't understand what anyone else is talking about when they discuss privilege. You only feel defensive because you assume that someone saying you are a "cis lady" is insulting you, rather than identifying your use (and abuse) of cis privilege.

maevele is cis, and I don't call her "cis lady" with any regularity. The only times I'd do it is when I need to point out that she's acting privileged and is blinded by her own cis privilege.

It's bullshit to accuse me of "reverse bigotry" or whatever by saying that I think trans people are "better" than cis people. I've said nothing of the sort, and it's the kind of bigoted, privileged argument that lots of privileged bigots make routinely.

So if she is cis and you DON'T call her cis lady, that means you ARE using it as an insult. So for someone who has only heard the word directed it at them as an insult, is it surprising that they would think it's insulting?

You might not have said it directly, but by your own admission you've been using the word cis to point out a cisperson's ignorance. So why wouldn't I assume you think you are better when you are using to term to let them know how much more knowledgeable you are than them.

How ELSE do you expect someone to point out cis privilege being used WITHOUT using the word "cis"?

You're an idiot,

lady_alyria. You were in March, and you still are. You can't even see that you are contradicting the person you agreed with, because you are so desperate to pretend like trans people are being bigoted and mean against you.

I don't think trans people are being bigoted and mean. I think YOU are. You don't seem to understand that distinction.

So you think I am bigoted against cisgender people, is that what you're saying?

I don't think cis people are necessarily bigoted or stupid either. I just think YOU are.

That's funny. Because when you want to point out my "stupidity" you remind me that I'm "cis" as if the two words are interchangeable. And you just admitted you do that to other cis people, even the ones you consider friends when they "step outta line".

No, you're cis AND stupid.

There is no way to remind someone that they are acting out of cis privilege and tossing around cissexism without telling them they are cis.

It's like (but not identical to) if you try to tell me I am being racist without ever addressing that I'm white.

Have I called you white in a derogatory way, ever?

Have you ever called me out for being a racist asshat?

No -- and in fact you've praised me for NOT being racist toward you.

The fact that I haven't been racist enough for you to call out doesn't mean that when you say cissexist bullshit, you get to invoke some sort of false reciprocity and demand that I don't point out your cis privilege.

it's more like she doesn't need to remind me of my cis privilege by calling me cis unless I fuck up and seem to forget how privileged I am and wave it around. Just like until I do something full of white privilege, no one needs to be like 'nice privilege, white lady'

Even if you did something full of white privilege I still wouldn't say something like that to you. I don't blame you for being white, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with being white, so why would I use it as a derogatory term?

I have more respect for you than that, and I would hope that giving you reasons I thought you were exercising white privilege would make you re-examine whatever you were doing in a new light.

Like when half my friend's list couldn't see what was racist about the comic where the police officers shot the monkey. I didn't go, CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE YA WHITE MCWHITTIES! I explained why *I* thought it was racist, and realized people with entirely different life experiences than my own might see it different. Some of my friends got what I was saying and agreed it was racist. Some still didn't agree. I didn't demand they agree because I'm black and they are white and I'm the expert on what's racist and what isn't. I didn't think they were stupid. I just figured they didn't/couldn't see things the same way I did regarding that particular instance and moved on.

Have you noticed that every time you attempt to translate these issues into race ones to enlighten me it never works? My thought process is consistent if not popular with the far left.

Yes, your thought processes are consistently stupid.

maevele, why's this person your friend? You're usually a better judge of character.

Yes. Brow beat her into defriending me. That's always the next step with you. If you can't silence me with insults, silence me by getting me kicked off her LJ. Don't forget to give

shemale a talking to too, she for some strange reason sees value in me as a human being also.

Yeah, I've got so much power.

Someone's presence on my friendslist does not in any way imply an endorsement of their views, only that they say things i want to read for some reason. I'm pretty sure I added her originally for bein clever in Stupid Free, and I don't defriend people because I disagree with them, unless they are hopeless fucknuts.

I even give some people i think are hopeless fucknuts a bunch of chances, in case they get it eventually. I mean, I dropped shtrly et al, but have kept people more, um, problematic than Alyria has ever been.

I'm only going to be on sporadically, if at all, until next wednesday, so I won't be able to tell if this gets out of hand and make up a moderation policy to deal with it, so y'all fight amongst yerselves. nobody stab anybody.

I'll just stop interacting for now.

And no, I don't mean ZOMG U MUST SHUN THIS PERSON. Despite her paranoia otherwise.

but it's still not derogatory in that usage, just a reminder. just a 'hey, yr speaking from privileged position' imo. It totally shouldn't be anyone else's job to point out the details of how I'm being privileged, if they've already done me the favor of pointing out I am speaking from privilege.

That's because you are a far more lenient person than I. "You should know what you did" argument is for 1950s housewives. If I'm spending time around someone, I'm working on the assumption that they aren't out to hurt me, so if they do, I'm going to guess it's by mistake, and they aren't aware of it.

I don't think as a black person it's my job to educate white people about racism. But if they are part of my circle either they are worth my time, or they shouldn't be part of my circle anymore.

So if she is cis and you DON'T call her cis lady, that means you ARE using it as an insult. ... You might not have said it directly, but by your own admission you've been using the word cis to point out a cisperson's ignorance.

No, no, no. Cis isn't an insult; it's a piece of information that is sometimes relevant.

If I (white person) said "Shut up, white lady," to another white person who was being annoying in some non-race-related way, I would be using "white" as an insult, because it wasn't relevant. Or, at least, it would be weird.

kynn doesn't say, "Hey cis lady, I like your non-trans-issues-related icon" (or whatever), because cisness has nothing to do with that situation.

But, situations when a cis person is being cissexist/transphobic/transmisogynist? Their cis status is relevant. There are things we do not and cannot understand because we are cis & there are specific privileges we get because we are cis. It's not weird/unnecessary/mean to bring it up. It's a vital piece of information.

At worst, it's a rebuke, like, "Hey, remember, you have this privilege." Or, "Hey, remember, you're not the unmarked 'normal' one." But that's not an attack; it's the truth.

Part of the reason it seems that way, more than "white" or "male," is that cissupremecists don't go around saying, "Cis people are the best! Cis = awesome!" They don't want to even admit trans people exist, so why would they identify with a word meaning not-trans? Cissexism is based on the idea that there are normal people, real women and real men, and then there are these other weirdos. So yeah, you don't hear a lot of use of the word outside of discussions of privilege, because to use it is to accept that cis and trans folk are equals.

(Here from Caoimhe's DW -- hope that's ok, maevele)

I can kinda see what you are saying, but there is a certain tone people take when they are attacking you and that's the tone she uses every time she talks to me. And calls me cis like a little kid would call someone a mean name.

In a discussion about privilege I don't need to be reminded of what I am. It's not like I forgot. And when I talk to people about white privilege I don't call them white in the same tone as she called me cis. Though I have seen black people that do, and they tend to think all white people are evil and racist.

Yes, that's what Autumn was doing -- but coming from a cis person, this is again a cis person telling trans people they're doing it wrong in fighting oppression.

This is my point exactly. You agree with the message but disagree with the messenger. To me, the truth is the truth regardless of where it's coming from. You and a cisperson can say the exact same thing word for word and you are right and they are an asshole exerting their cisprivilege. How is that NOT bigotry?

Sorry, you are too stupid here to explain this to. Scoot along, the adults are talking.

Remember earlier when I said sometimes you say things that make me feel you think you're better than me...

Oh, I definitely am better than you, dearie. (See, that's condescension, too, from me.)

But the thing is, your accusation was that I think I'm better than you because I'm trans and you're cis. Not because I'm better than you because I'm smart and you're stupider than shit.

damn. from voz

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Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

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