maevele | damn. from voz

Thank you for linking this.

Julian Morrison Said:

Cis isn’t offensive. It’s a chemistry term for “on the same side” and opposed to the chemistry term trans, “on opposite sides”. It’s use for people is a non-insulting metaphor and a pun extending from the pre-existing use of “trans”. So basically, anyone getting het up about it is demanding to own the unlabeled default. They don’t want to be treated equally to trans people, they want to be the “normal” ones. Well at that point, there’s nothing more to say except “no”.

His comment was exactly what I was thinking on the subject and very well put.

Does this mean you've actually learned some things about cis privilege since, oh say, March,

lady_alyria?

Nope. Still feel the same about that issue.

Figures.

Doesn't figure. I know that has more to do with you as a person than your trans status.

The point she makes is an excellent one, but people are listening precisely because she is cis.

I had been saying the same damn thing for a long time along with many many other trans women, but, let's face it, cis voices carry farther and are taken more seriously than trans women's voices. This is why you see so many copies of this post floating around, and none of mine ;-)

People who deny it's existence usually have a rather distorted idea of what "privilege" really means.

Privilege is about what one DOES NOT have, and most misinformed folks think it is about what one DOES have.

Cis privilege is being able to take a shit in a public restroom without a court battle or a beatdown by the cops...or having to worry about it.

etc etc

Cis privilege is about a cis person stomping into a space and denying that it exists, or declaring that his/her experience trumps those who actually live this shit, rather than pontificate abstractly on an Internet forum.

Not having to fight every shithead from here to Lampansas for the right to describe yourself without interference is cis privilege.

I could go on, of course, but the article was pretty damn plain for anybody with open eyes.

Really, is that all you think it "has to do with"?

A chance for you to make a personal attack on my qualities as a person?

Well, let's look at a quote from the paragraph by someone else you quoted and agreed with:

So basically, anyone getting het up about it is demanding to own the unlabeled default.

And then let's look at how you reacted to the terms "cisgender" and "privilege."

And I'm so tired of "privileged" and "cisgender" being used as insults. People can't help what they are. When the focus is always on whose saying it, no one really pays attention to what's being said.

And:

And yes, I think a lot of times people use who they are as a weapon to the point where you can't even talk to anyone like a rational adult without being called a bigot.

And, when you minimize cis privilege, something that you possess, when talking to trans people about the effects of cis privilege:

You think that you are the only person that has had a hard life? What about the kids on the save the children commercials too weak to bat a fly off their eye. Or people locked up in internment camps? You aren't the end all, be all of human suffering, so grow the hell up and get over yourself. Life is hard. FOR EVERYBODY. Not just the people who are just like you. Compared to a lot of people in this world you are - PRIVILEGED.

And when you declare that your opinion, as a cis person, on whether or not something cis privilege should be elevated over a trans person, in a discussion of cis privilege:

I'm sorry. I think for myself. If I don't see it as an abuse of privilege I'm not going to pretend I do.

And where you use standard privilege-denying tactics to say that cis privilege (which you have) really isn't all that important after all because other oppressions exist:

I wouldn't deny it exist. I deny that it's all encompassing. Even if you have cisprivilege you can still have a buttload of hurdles in life. The way you use the term, it make it sound like because he's cisgender his life must be sunshine and rainbows.

And here's you saying that cis privilege isn't really a privilege for you, it's some disadvantage possessed by trans people because they're in the minority, and to view your status as privileged is laughable:

I'm sorry, it's just that the idea I'm disagreeing with you to protect some kind of privilege I have is just hilarious.

Since, the majority of people are cisgendered it's less of a privilege for me and more of a disadvantage to you. Why would I want to keep you at a disadvantage?

(continued in next reply)

(continued from previous reply)

And you declaring that calling you out on your cis privilege is "bigotry" against cis people:

See what I mean. I hate how "cisgender" and "privileged" are used as insults. This is pure bigotry.

Read that, and then re-read the quote you supposedly agree with:

Cis isn’t offensive. It’s a chemistry term for “on the same side” and opposed to the chemistry term trans, “on opposite sides”. It’s use for people is a non-insulting metaphor and a pun extending from the pre-existing use of “trans”. So basically, anyone getting het up about it is demanding to own the unlabeled default. They don’t want to be treated equally to trans people, they want to be the “normal” ones. Well at that point, there’s nothing more to say except “no”.

You do follow exactly that model of behavior, everything from getting het up about the terminology -- in a SOP, by-the-book privileged attempt to prevent oppressed people from discussing their oppression and your privilege by taking away the words themselves -- to declaring that the problem isn't that you're privileged, it's that trans people are disadvantaged (i.e., defining yourself as "normal").

You do all of that. I had hoped, when I saw your reply here on

maevele's LJ, that it meant you had reconsidered the nonsense you were spouting earlier this year.

Sadly, you haven't -- since you refuse to recant your privileged bullshit when offered the chance, it's pretty clear that you still stand by it, and think that "cisgender" and "privileged" are terms used by bigoted trans people to insult poor "normal" cis people.

And your only response to me is to call me a bad person who thinks everyone who disagrees on everything is the Enemy. No, sorry, cis lady. You're wallowing in your cis privilege, just as did you in March. Your personal attacks on me won't make it any different.

I was thinking as I was reading it that it really was just a rephrasing of what you had said over and over, with a new metaphor, but it might seem more palatable for the privileged coming from the privileged point of view. Because that's just always how it works, innit? someone in the oppressed class says something over and over, and people don't listen, or claim they're too angry, or whatever. But once someone who shares the privilege in question says the same thing, boom, they get it.

I've been the white girl repeating things POC keep saying that gets it through to white folk before, so i'm kinda used to the pattern, and will use it, even though it pisses me the fuck off.

and it helps to have a privileged voice carry them.

I don't think the term cis is offensive. I think it can, and often has been used as a weapon. Like you are doing right now. I don't see how those two beliefs conflict. I don't think there shouldn't be an identifier for non-trans people. Cis works perfectly fine in that regard. But I can also see how some cispeople would come to think that cis is a derogatory term given the context in which it is most often used. For example:

"No, sorry, cis lady."

It's like you are using a regular descriptor to name call. Like had you said,

"No, sorry, black lady."

or

"No, sorry, fat lady."

Both words accurately describe me but it's clear from the context that it's an insult. There is nothing WRONG with being cis anymore than being trans.

I think that's the major difference. You call me cis as if it's something bad. Something I should be ashamed of, that I did wrong. The person whose quote I agreed with was saying that they are equalizing terms.

I see us as equals, you see yourself as my better. When I want you to see my point of view I give reasons for why I feel the way I do. I treat you like I would any other rational human being even though the first thing you ever said to me was "Die in a fire." You tell me I should just accept what you say as Truth because as a cis woman, blinded by my cis privilege I have no way of possibly understanding what brought you to your conclusions. That's the difference between us I don't write people off because of who and what they are.

You call me cis as if it's something bad. Something I should be ashamed of, that I did wrong.

No, I call you cis privileged as if it's something bad, which it is.

I see us as equals, you see yourself as my better.

Bullshit. You do see yourself as better than me, and you are offended when your cis-privileged perspective is not automatically privileged over mine.

Pointing out that you are being oppressive and exercising cis privilege not the same as "writing people off because of who and what they are."

You are clueless. You don't understand what anyone else is talking about when they discuss privilege. You only feel defensive because you assume that someone saying you are a "cis lady" is insulting you, rather than identifying your use (and abuse) of cis privilege.

maevele is cis, and I don't call her "cis lady" with any regularity. The only times I'd do it is when I need to point out that she's acting privileged and is blinded by her own cis privilege.

It's bullshit to accuse me of "reverse bigotry" or whatever by saying that I think trans people are "better" than cis people. I've said nothing of the sort, and it's the kind of bigoted, privileged argument that lots of privileged bigots make routinely.

One of the privileges I think people don't think much about, is the privilege of just being heard.

Yes. Lets debate what I think in my head. Because you most surely know more about MY FEELINGS than I do. You seem to know more about just about everything than I do. Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?

I explain my perspective and am happy to let people take it or leave it. You just call me names and brow beat me until I just submit to your perspective for no other reason than I don't want to look like a horrible person exercising her cisprivilege. Seems like you are the one offended when people don't simply except whatever you say as gospel truth.

Yeah, that's one thing I noticed about that post. Cis people automatically have more "credibility" when talking about trans issues.

I didn't link to it on my blog because of three reasons. (1) The people who read my blog already know (or should know) that from reading what I wrote, and they don't need some nice cis lady to explain it to them. (2) I don't want to endorse the idea that we need cis "interpreters" to be the good cops and explain things rather than letting trans people speak for ourselves.

And (3), which may be ironic, I really can't endorse the way in which she told off Autumn Sandeen. Autumn was clearly wrong and I said that, but it's also cis privileged -- in a post about cis privilege -- for a nice cis lady to take the role of scolding a trans woman and saying "it’s way too early in the trans-movement for a scab whose willing to sell the rest of the movement upriver just to keep the peace with the oppressors."

Yes, that's what Autumn was doing -- but coming from a cis person, this is again a cis person telling trans people they're doing it wrong in fighting oppression. Autumn's fuckups should be dealt with by trans people, and not by cis people saying she's hurting The Cause (which the nice cis lady admits to not being very aware of, due to her privilege) and sanctimoniously lecturing Autumn.

Even if that nice cis lady is correct, it's still wrong, just like it's wrong whenever I get worked up with my own white privilege and stupidly think I can lecture POC about being "house negroes" or whatever. It's not my place as part of the privileged oppressors to condescendingly tell the oppressed people that they're Doing It Wrong by not fighting (my!) oppression and instead going along with it to maintain what few perks are allowed to them under a bigotry-driven system.

And likewise, it's not cool for a nice cis lady, in the middle of making an excellent point about cis privilege, to launch into a criticism of how Autumn has chosen to maintain her status at PHB by appeasing the cis people with power. It's out of place and she has no standing (personal experience) from which to castigate Autumn on this point.

Your feelings don't matter; your words and your actions do. I'm talking about what you've said and done.

You have been dismissive, every time I've seen you post about it, of the idea that trans people understand anti-trans oppression and cis privilege better than you, a cis-privileged person, view things.

If you're going whine "no fair talking about MY FEELINGS!" then you'd best drop stuff like telling me that I see myself as your better because I'm trans.

So if she is cis and you DON'T call her cis lady, that means you ARE using it as an insult. So for someone who has only heard the word directed it at them as an insult, is it surprising that they would think it's insulting?

You might not have said it directly, but by your own admission you've been using the word cis to point out a cisperson's ignorance. So why wouldn't I assume you think you are better when you are using to term to let them know how much more knowledgeable you are than them.

Yes, that's what Autumn was doing -- but coming from a cis person, this is again a cis person telling trans people they're doing it wrong in fighting oppression.

This is my point exactly. You agree with the message but disagree with the messenger. To me, the truth is the truth regardless of where it's coming from. You and a cisperson can say the exact same thing word for word and you are right and they are an asshole exerting their cisprivilege. How is that NOT bigotry?

You are right. You only act like you see yourself as my better. I can't say for sure or not if you genuinely do because I'm not in your head.

Sorry, you are too stupid here to explain this to. Scoot along, the adults are talking.

I'm better than you because I don't revel in my privilege nearly as much as you do, and that's all.

(Oh, and I'm not stupid.)

How ELSE do you expect someone to point out cis privilege being used WITHOUT using the word "cis"?

You're an idiot,

lady_alyria. You were in March, and you still are. You can't even see that you are contradicting the person you agreed with, because you are so desperate to pretend like trans people are being bigoted and mean against you.

Remember earlier when I said sometimes you say things that make me feel you think you're better than me...

damn. from voz

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

privileged cis lady is cis privileged

Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Thanks for the repost.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Re: Thanks for the repost.

Hard words are often necessary ones..

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Re: Hard words are often necessary ones..

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Re: Thanks for the repost.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

no subject

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

no subject

no subject