damn. from voz

[maevele]

Is Cis A Dis? And other air castles to storm… « FemmEssay

a cis feminist making a damn strong point about cis privilege.

Comments

privileged cis lady is cis privileged

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Figures.

Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

Doesn't figure. I know that has more to do with you as a person than your trans status.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Really, is that all you think it "has to do with"?

A chance for you to make a personal attack on my qualities as a person?

Well, let's look at a quote from the paragraph by someone else you quoted and agreed with:

So basically, anyone getting het up about it is demanding to own the unlabeled default.

And then let's look at how you reacted to the terms "cisgender" and "privilege."

And I'm so tired of "privileged" and "cisgender" being used as insults. People can't help what they are. When the focus is always on whose saying it, no one really pays attention to what's being said.

And:

And yes, I think a lot of times people use who they are as a weapon to the point where you can't even talk to anyone like a rational adult without being called a bigot.

And, when you minimize cis privilege, something that you possess, when talking to trans people about the effects of cis privilege:

You think that you are the only person that has had a hard life? What about the kids on the save the children commercials too weak to bat a fly off their eye. Or people locked up in internment camps? You aren't the end all, be all of human suffering, so grow the hell up and get over yourself. Life is hard. FOR EVERYBODY. Not just the people who are just like you. Compared to a lot of people in this world you are - PRIVILEGED.

And when you declare that your opinion, as a cis person, on whether or not something cis privilege should be elevated over a trans person, in a discussion of cis privilege:

I'm sorry. I think for myself. If I don't see it as an abuse of privilege I'm not going to pretend I do.

And where you use standard privilege-denying tactics to say that cis privilege (which you have) really isn't all that important after all because other oppressions exist:

I wouldn't deny it exist. I deny that it's all encompassing. Even if you have cisprivilege you can still have a buttload of hurdles in life. The way you use the term, it make it sound like because he's cisgender his life must be sunshine and rainbows.

And here's you saying that cis privilege isn't really a privilege for you, it's some disadvantage possessed by trans people because they're in the minority, and to view your status as privileged is laughable:

I'm sorry, it's just that the idea I'm disagreeing with you to protect some kind of privilege I have is just hilarious.

Since, the majority of people are cisgendered it's less of a privilege for me and more of a disadvantage to you. Why would I want to keep you at a disadvantage?

(continued in next reply)

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

(continued from previous reply)

And you declaring that calling you out on your cis privilege is "bigotry" against cis people:

See what I mean. I hate how "cisgender" and "privileged" are used as insults. This is pure bigotry.

Read that, and then re-read the quote you supposedly agree with:

Cis isn’t offensive. It’s a chemistry term for “on the same side” and opposed to the chemistry term trans, “on opposite sides”. It’s use for people is a non-insulting metaphor and a pun extending from the pre-existing use of “trans”. So basically, anyone getting het up about it is demanding to own the unlabeled default. They don’t want to be treated equally to trans people, they want to be the “normal” ones. Well at that point, there’s nothing more to say except “no”.

You do follow exactly that model of behavior, everything from getting het up about the terminology -- in a SOP, by-the-book privileged attempt to prevent oppressed people from discussing their oppression and your privilege by taking away the words themselves -- to declaring that the problem isn't that you're privileged, it's that trans people are disadvantaged (i.e., defining yourself as "normal").

You do all of that. I had hoped, when I saw your reply here on maevele's LJ, that it meant you had reconsidered the nonsense you were spouting earlier this year.

Sadly, you haven't -- since you refuse to recant your privileged bullshit when offered the chance, it's pretty clear that you still stand by it, and think that "cisgender" and "privileged" are terms used by bigoted trans people to insult poor "normal" cis people.

And your only response to me is to call me a bad person who thinks everyone who disagrees on everything is the Enemy. No, sorry, cis lady. You're wallowing in your cis privilege, just as did you in March. Your personal attacks on me won't make it any different.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

I don't think the term cis is offensive. I think it can, and often has been used as a weapon. Like you are doing right now. I don't see how those two beliefs conflict. I don't think there shouldn't be an identifier for non-trans people. Cis works perfectly fine in that regard. But I can also see how some cispeople would come to think that cis is a derogatory term given the context in which it is most often used. For example:

"No, sorry, cis lady."

It's like you are using a regular descriptor to name call. Like had you said,

"No, sorry, black lady."

or

"No, sorry, fat lady."

Both words accurately describe me but it's clear from the context that it's an insult. There is nothing WRONG with being cis anymore than being trans.

I think that's the major difference. You call me cis as if it's something bad. Something I should be ashamed of, that I did wrong. The person whose quote I agreed with was saying that they are equalizing terms.

I see us as equals, you see yourself as my better. When I want you to see my point of view I give reasons for why I feel the way I do. I treat you like I would any other rational human being even though the first thing you ever said to me was "Die in a fire." You tell me I should just accept what you say as Truth because as a cis woman, blinded by my cis privilege I have no way of possibly understanding what brought you to your conclusions. That's the difference between us I don't write people off because of who and what they are.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

You call me cis as if it's something bad. Something I should be ashamed of, that I did wrong.

No, I call you cis privileged as if it's something bad, which it is.

I see us as equals, you see yourself as my better.

Bullshit. You do see yourself as better than me, and you are offended when your cis-privileged perspective is not automatically privileged over mine.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

Yes. Lets debate what I think in my head. Because you most surely know more about MY FEELINGS than I do. You seem to know more about just about everything than I do. Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?

I explain my perspective and am happy to let people take it or leave it. You just call me names and brow beat me until I just submit to your perspective for no other reason than I don't want to look like a horrible person exercising her cisprivilege. Seems like you are the one offended when people don't simply except whatever you say as gospel truth.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Your feelings don't matter; your words and your actions do. I'm talking about what you've said and done.

You have been dismissive, every time I've seen you post about it, of the idea that trans people understand anti-trans oppression and cis privilege better than you, a cis-privileged person, view things.

If you're going whine "no fair talking about MY FEELINGS!" then you'd best drop stuff like telling me that I see myself as your better because I'm trans.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

You are right. You only act like you see yourself as my better. I can't say for sure or not if you genuinely do because I'm not in your head.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

I'm better than you because I don't revel in my privilege nearly as much as you do, and that's all.

(Oh, and I'm not stupid.)

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Pointing out that you are being oppressive and exercising cis privilege not the same as "writing people off because of who and what they are."

You are clueless. You don't understand what anyone else is talking about when they discuss privilege. You only feel defensive because you assume that someone saying you are a "cis lady" is insulting you, rather than identifying your use (and abuse) of cis privilege.

maevele is cis, and I don't call her "cis lady" with any regularity. The only times I'd do it is when I need to point out that she's acting privileged and is blinded by her own cis privilege.

It's bullshit to accuse me of "reverse bigotry" or whatever by saying that I think trans people are "better" than cis people. I've said nothing of the sort, and it's the kind of bigoted, privileged argument that lots of privileged bigots make routinely.

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

So if she is cis and you DON'T call her cis lady, that means you ARE using it as an insult. So for someone who has only heard the word directed it at them as an insult, is it surprising that they would think it's insulting?

You might not have said it directly, but by your own admission you've been using the word cis to point out a cisperson's ignorance. So why wouldn't I assume you think you are better when you are using to term to let them know how much more knowledgeable you are than them.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

How ELSE do you expect someone to point out cis privilege being used WITHOUT using the word "cis"?

You're an idiot, lady_alyria. You were in March, and you still are. You can't even see that you are contradicting the person you agreed with, because you are so desperate to pretend like trans people are being bigoted and mean against you.

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

I don't think trans people are being bigoted and mean. I think YOU are. You don't seem to understand that distinction.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

So you think I am bigoted against cisgender people, is that what you're saying?

I don't think cis people are necessarily bigoted or stupid either. I just think YOU are.

[maevele.livejournal.com]

it's more like she doesn't need to remind me of my cis privilege by calling me cis unless I fuck up and seem to forget how privileged I am and wave it around. Just like until I do something full of white privilege, no one needs to be like 'nice privilege, white lady'

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

Even if you did something full of white privilege I still wouldn't say something like that to you. I don't blame you for being white, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with being white, so why would I use it as a derogatory term?

I have more respect for you than that, and I would hope that giving you reasons I thought you were exercising white privilege would make you re-examine whatever you were doing in a new light.

Like when half my friend's list couldn't see what was racist about the comic where the police officers shot the monkey. I didn't go, CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE YA WHITE MCWHITTIES! I explained why *I* thought it was racist, and realized people with entirely different life experiences than my own might see it different. Some of my friends got what I was saying and agreed it was racist. Some still didn't agree. I didn't demand they agree because I'm black and they are white and I'm the expert on what's racist and what isn't. I didn't think they were stupid. I just figured they didn't/couldn't see things the same way I did regarding that particular instance and moved on.

Have you noticed that every time you attempt to translate these issues into race ones to enlighten me it never works? My thought process is consistent if not popular with the far left.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Yes, your thought processes are consistently stupid.

maevele, why's this person your friend? You're usually a better judge of character.

[maevele.livejournal.com]

but it's still not derogatory in that usage, just a reminder. just a 'hey, yr speaking from privileged position' imo. It totally shouldn't be anyone else's job to point out the details of how I'm being privileged, if they've already done me the favor of pointing out I am speaking from privilege.

[softestbullet (from livejournal.com)]

So if she is cis and you DON'T call her cis lady, that means you ARE using it as an insult. ... You might not have said it directly, but by your own admission you've been using the word cis to point out a cisperson's ignorance.

No, no, no. Cis isn't an insult; it's a piece of information that is sometimes relevant.

If I (white person) said "Shut up, white lady," to another white person who was being annoying in some non-race-related way, I would be using "white" as an insult, because it wasn't relevant. Or, at least, it would be weird. kynn doesn't say, "Hey cis lady, I like your non-trans-issues-related icon" (or whatever), because cisness has nothing to do with that situation.

But, situations when a cis person is being cissexist/transphobic/transmisogynist? Their cis status is relevant. There are things we do not and cannot understand because we are cis & there are specific privileges we get because we are cis. It's not weird/unnecessary/mean to bring it up. It's a vital piece of information.

At worst, it's a rebuke, like, "Hey, remember, you have this privilege." Or, "Hey, remember, you're not the unmarked 'normal' one." But that's not an attack; it's the truth.

Part of the reason it seems that way, more than "white" or "male," is that cissupremecists don't go around saying, "Cis people are the best! Cis = awesome!" They don't want to even admit trans people exist, so why would they identify with a word meaning not-trans? Cissexism is based on the idea that there are normal people, real women and real men, and then there are these other weirdos. So yeah, you don't hear a lot of use of the word outside of discussions of privilege, because to use it is to accept that cis and trans folk are equals.

(Here from Caoimhe's DW -- hope that's ok, maevele)

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

I can kinda see what you are saying, but there is a certain tone people take when they are attacking you and that's the tone she uses every time she talks to me. And calls me cis like a little kid would call someone a mean name.

In a discussion about privilege I don't need to be reminded of what I am. It's not like I forgot. And when I talk to people about white privilege I don't call them white in the same tone as she called me cis. Though I have seen black people that do, and they tend to think all white people are evil and racist.

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's what Autumn was doing -- but coming from a cis person, this is again a cis person telling trans people they're doing it wrong in fighting oppression.

This is my point exactly. You agree with the message but disagree with the messenger. To me, the truth is the truth regardless of where it's coming from. You and a cisperson can say the exact same thing word for word and you are right and they are an asshole exerting their cisprivilege. How is that NOT bigotry?

Re: Trans lady thinks anyone that disagrees with her on anything is The Enemy.

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Sorry, you are too stupid here to explain this to. Scoot along, the adults are talking.

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

Remember earlier when I said sometimes you say things that make me feel you think you're better than me...

[kynn.livejournal.com]

Oh, I definitely am better than you, dearie. (See, that's condescension, too, from me.)

But the thing is, your accusation was that I think I'm better than you because I'm trans and you're cis. Not because I'm better than you because I'm smart and you're stupider than shit.