huh

[maevele]

so, like a year ago I posted some dumb shit in debunking white, noticing that at the store or whatever, I was much more likely to nod and say hi to POC than to white people, and trying to analyze why this would be. well, last night at the store I was in a good enough mood to find myself acknowledging a wider cross section of the public, and I think I figured it out. Some white people will straight up ignore me. not all of them, but enough that I felt slighted for having tried to say hi, or just make eye contact and nod.

so, that's it. I acknowledge more poc that whites out in public because they reject/ignore me less. I'm sure there is some more complicated sit going on with it, and some class stuff with which white people ignored me, but yeah.



eta; it's not like I'm running around the store being exceptionally social and trying to talk to strangers, I'm just talking the basic hey, or eye contact and nod, basic acknowledgement. I'm not chatty.

Comments

[dharma_slut]

Let me suggest something... which is that, you just might see the POC who acknowledge you, more readily than you see the ones that don't.

Are you are more likely to remember some white folk who snub you than you do some POC who snub you-- or, perhaps, resent POC less for being preoccupied in public?

[maevele]

I considered that, that maybe it was my perception or whatever, but once I was paying direct attention, literally not one POC failed to at least eye contact/nod back, or respond to my 'hey' with a hey or how you doing, and at least three white people specifically avoided doing so, ie, looking away quickly when I made eye contact and nodded, not just didn't notice, but reacted uncomfortably to me acknowledging them.

I'm wondering if it's not straight up cultural socialization, that white people have the privilege to ignore other white people, whereas historically it would be some risky shit for a poc to not respond? I started off thinking it was just that some white people are snobby assholes who won't acknowledge my type in public, but now I'm thinking it's more complex.

[dharma_slut]

We'll have to try some sort of double-blind experiment... which seems impossible to construct doesn't it! Keep notes on how many of each, which ethicities, the white folks are, stuff like that?

I live in ever-so-urban Los Angeles. And I get as many variances in responses to greeting from POC of any ethnic variety--Hispanic, black, Thai, Phillipino,-- as I do from the varied white groups around here- Slavic, Armenian, American redneck, Hippy, Yuppy, Metro, Hipster... And it's possible that the people around here have less of that historical sense of risk, making it easier for everyone to be self-occupied in public...

[maevele]

I think I'll start paying more conscious attention to it on the regular now that I have noticed it, including mental notes about the apparent class status of those who do/do not respond

[littlebutfierce]

from the varied white groups around here- Slavic, Armenian, American redneck, Hippy, Yuppy, Metro, Hipster

What about POCS--are they never hippies, yuppies, hipsters?

[dharma_slut]

Yes indeed! All sorts of preferenced affiliations. And those preferences seem to influence folks' reactions, more than their color does-- at least, in this metropolis.

[amadi]

This is a touchy question, but to wrap my head around a response, can I ask if you identify as a POC?

[maevele]

no, i'm white as fuck. I'm on the fence as to how much it's a white privilege thing, or just a different social ettiquette thing? Maybe middle class whites are just less inclined to interact with strangers at all, or with freakish looking strangers like myself?

[amadi]

First, the qualifier "as fuck" always makes me laugh, so thank you for that.

Second, and more seriously, I think that you're hitting on something with both social etiquette and class issues driving what you're seeing. The word that's buzzing in my head is "conformity." Upward mobility requires it, those who eschew it are indicating that they work outside of the typical class structure. It's not only visual difference that makes people wary, but the pinprick in the notion, however sub-sub-sub-conscious it may be, that in order to function successfully in society you can't stray too far from the pack.

[maevele]

I hadn't really thought through how much my deviance from the norm may be influencing this. I wonder how different of a response a more normal looking white person would get, as far as being avoided by white middle class presenting folks.

I may actually have ascribed to race something that may be mroe class related, although middle class presenting POC still do acknowledge my greeting.

[amadi]

At risk of making a way broad overgeneralization, in my experience, we (middle class black POC) will return in kind a polite acknowledgment in passing from anyone whose intentions don't seem harmful. Lots of multiple layers of reasons there, no doubt, and it's gendered (the rules of polite differ for men and women) but it's there.

[maevele]

I think I'd like to also hear from some white middle class folk, because I really have almost no exposure to white middle class people. (or middle class people on the whole) They may be socialized the same way, but somehow see me as a threat, or they may in fact be raised to not make casual social contact in that way, or with people who are different from them.

Because I was raised pretty much welfare class, in a diverse neighborhood, and the basic politeness standard was that if you were walking towards someone, you acknowledged them in some way.

I'm sure I must have white middle class people on here somewhere, so maybe tey will chime in with what their cultural standard is.

[amadi]

I'd be interested in that perspective too. I have my mom, but she's in the suspect category of assumed-white middle class who married a man who was anything but white, so her perspective is skewed. :)

[djkittycat]

I generally don't talk to people in the grocery store at all. I have no desire to. I want to just get my food and leave so I can eat it! If someone said hello to me, however, I would definitely answer back. It's basic politeness. Exception would be really creepy dude.

I am more likely to initiate hellos like on a hiking trail or something of that nature.

[maevele]

right, I specifically don't mean actually starting a conversation, because seriously, no, i do not want to talk, but just the eye contact acknowledgement as you pass someone thing being deflected.

[keeva]

I raised in a white family in a white-and-Latino-and-some-others city where Asian folks moved in.

I remember being taught very definitely that you Don't Talk To Strangers, and the white undercurrent was that they're probably out to get you. Being, like, poor and/or non-white often -- you just don't talk to Those People. Or any people.

[keeva]

We also can't really ignore centuries of history wherein black people who don't give polite social responses back to white people were putting themselves in possible jeopardy, up to and including being murdered.

[maevele]

I brought that up in a comment above, too, because yeah, that plays into it in a major way.

[amadi]

Oh absolutely, though we're sufficiently beyond that in most of the country that even members of my mother's generation don't have that as a part of their thinking. People younger than that don't necessarily have that as a compelling factor in behavioral decisions.

[maevele]

right, it probably still influences what is culturally considered polite, though.

[amadi]

Hmm, culturally, within what culture, though?

[keeva]

Consciously, no -- but culturally I'd be surprised if some of the things we consider to be "black 'good manners'" aren't survival mechanisms left over from when white people could assault random black people and expect to get away with it.

[keeva]

...and generally speaking, people who are not societally privileged have a greater requirement to be "polite" than people who already enjoy privilege in social interactions. That isn't just a black/white thing, of course.

[dharma_slut]

Maybe middle class whites are just less inclined to interact with strangers at all, or with freakish looking strangers like myself?

very much so. I get many more positive responses nowadays-- now that I dress in clean button-down shirts and jeans and loafers instead of wild and wacky costmy things all the time.

[maevele]

I just find it weird that it still breaks down with race though, because even very conservative looking POC still hey back at my blue haired leather clad self.

[maevele]

I'm pasting in some comments from the thread on facebook, where I sked this but much simpler, and where I do actually have a number of white middle class folks, and I found these interesting.

from N, a white man who at least was raised more middle class than me, if not fully middle class, kwim?
Fear and xenophobia? I figure it's something like this: White folks in our area tend to lack a cultural identity, and as a result their/our circle of identification is seldom larger than the immediate family. Those outside that circle are Other, regardless of appearance, and to be feared.

It could be that those areas where the "white" population tends to identify with a broader ethnicity or a regional identity tend to be friendlier and more open *to other whites* regardless of their background: e.g., "Southern hospitality".

More from N ;

as far as POC acknowledging you, i'd say that's just the normative behavior, without whatever neurotic nonsense afflicts the whites in question. the expected social transaction is to acknowledge a greeting in kind, but for whatever reason the whites in question are deviating from the script.

yes, please share as you see fit. i'd say the above dynamic only attempts to describe the way in which xenophobia manifests in our insular culture in this area -- it doesn't touch on the wellspring of that xenophobia.

really all i'm suggesting here is that the impulse for rejecting outsiders, which could be rooted in any number of cultures historically upstream to "white america" as a whole, seems to reduce and fragment down to the level of the family, even the individual, in areas that lack an overall "white" cultural identity. ... Read More

if another data point would be useful, i haven't noticed too many marked differences in the responses of white folks around me based on whether i'm wearing a polo and nice pants with a recent shave and haircut, versus full-on shaggy degenerate mode. either it's a matter more of basic mistrust of anyone outside one's known acquaintances, or i always look scary, even cleaned up.

that said, i guess if you look like someone somebody *should* know, they're at least more likely to wave back out of a sense of obligation: maybe you recognize *them* from church, PTA, AA or whatever, and they would be remiss in not acknowledging you. i figure you're correcting for that one.''

[kitashla.livejournal.com]

I know here it has a lot more to do with class level. I live in the South and people are generally of the "How are you" bent anyway. (As a Yankee, I could never figure out how to answer that question. They always say it as they are walking by. I finally realized that you are just supposed to say "How are you" back.)

Most people here will make eye contact and smile if you pass them. The only people who don't tend to be white and upper middle to upper class.

I guess us poor people keep giving our smiles away for free, not realizing you gotta pay for it.:)