(no subject)

[maevele]

I'm new to this whole fanfic/slash thing. I mean, I knew it existed, but just got into it a couple months. and I do not write it.

and i have a whole lot of thinky thoughts about the current shitstorm, but there is probably no point in jumping in, since i am only a reader of fic, not a writer, and the trouble seems to revolve around who is writing the stories, not who is enjoying them. but thoughts, i haz.


hm.. if queer women wish they were represented in the media, but every time we are it's as male-gaze eyecandy, and half the women characters in stories we like are written as background or props? we have to go to the fully developed characters we love and queer them, and those developed characters in most media? men.

I keep wanting to talk about how slash has affected my gender confusion, but i don't know how to get into that so well. just, um, yeah.

Comments

[jesse_the_k]

Ready to listen.

One of the reasons I enjoy fanfic is the small distance between reader and writer; it took me a couple months to reach my current position, which is reading contributes to the fan "gift economy" just as writing does.

And thinking out loud about the meaning of fanfic is very much part of the process.

[amadi]

As a writer, I'm interested in hearing your views as a reader.

[eriktrips]

I was reading the shitstorm about a week ago so I don't know where it is currently, but I think that the "rules" for queer women writers and straight women writers are going to be different when it comes to slash. Queer women representing queer men is a situation in which the power dynamics are generally skewed in favor of men to begin with, and I can certainly see your point as to queer women's options for queering fanfic when the main characters are male. Representation of another is always dicey to an extent, but I would think that between queer men and queer women the situation would be complex, especially if we are also thinking about queering gender itself. I don't see that any single group--if single groups can even be described--could exclusively claim oppressee status. Actually, from the point of view of an outsider, it seems like a situation that needs more writing rather than less, from all sides.

I do think that queer men have a legitimate concern in being represented by straight women, though, and that there the power dynamics are complicated by male privilege on one side and straight privilege on the other. I would be very wary of straight, cisgendered women trying to queer either/both sex and gender in fanfic without any care for how queers themselves want to be represented, but without actually being a reader of fanfic, I cannot comment on how things actually have played out. Of course, one has to be aware of whom "straight" and "cisgendered" actually denote, as well. How many seemingly straight, cisgendered women are neither..?

Stuff always gets more complicated when you start to look at all the possible parts, eh?

[maevele]

yeah, it's getting more compliated now, as people are talking about the fact that no, really, it's not mostly straight women as has been previously asserted. Because the debate keeps being framed as "straight women coopting m/m for their sexual gratification/entertainment" which, yeah, wtf problematic. But it's turning out that it isn't some anomoly that most of the slashers i know are queer identified in some way, it seems to be a pretty damn queer heavy demographic that is doing the slashing.

[pantryslut.livejournal.com]

I'm with you. I don't really want to get into it, but yeah. If we have so much practice -- b/c/ we have had to -- in projecting our interests and concerns into a male character b/c there's nobody to represent *us*...if we do so now practically unconsciously...some of us are going to end up writing and/or reading m/m fanfic.

[estrobutch.livejournal.com]

so let me get this right--gay men are pissed because straight women are writing kirk as the top when clearly spock is? or worse yet straight men are pissed because straight women are gayifying there heros?

[maevele.livejournal.com]

pretty much.

no, there's legit concern that straight women are appropriating gay male experience for their own entertainment/gratification. which yeah, problematic, but it is turning out as people look deeper that it is not mostly straight women writing this.

[oh-annalouise.livejournal.com]

Do you watch White Collar? (it's a very good vapid eye candy tv show, btw)

Take a look at slash written around White Collar sometimes and you'll notice a particular trend that I have not noticed in slash written around most popular television shows.

I think it demonstrates something about slash fiction and about this particular show that is interesting.

[maevele.livejournal.com]

I have not watched it. I went poking around in some fic for it last night, but a trend did not just jump out at me.

[oh-annalouise.livejournal.com]

I've yet to see a White Collar slash fic where the female romantic lead isn't prominently featured and where it's not presented that she knows about, approves of and usually participates in the sexual relationship between the two male leads. But I think that's because she's written in the actual show as a fully developed character who is actively involved with the two male characters lives.

One of the things that bothers me about slash is the intense, violent misogyny expressed usually towards women who are in canon relationships with the men who the writer thinks are/out to be sleeping together. She's an evil shrew or she dies horribly at the beginning of the fic or she just doesn't understand him so he has to cheat on her with his sidekick/best buddy/whatever.

But I think that reflects the misogyny of the source material. These are movies/shows where the female characters are presented as eye candy with no personality and the romantic relationship between her and the male lead never is a fully developed as the homosocial relationship between the men. So you can't blame slash writers for seeing these characters are disposable. The well-paid overwhelming male screenwriters sure think they are.