maevele: (hardison)
[personal profile] maevele
so it's time for the mommy-feminism wars again? because no.

Date: 2010-07-28 07:36 pm (UTC)
dancesontrains: (Doctor Who.. the hell cares?)
From: [personal profile] dancesontrains
:| What's happening?

Date: 2010-07-28 07:42 pm (UTC)
dancesontrains: (Default)
From: [personal profile] dancesontrains
Ack. Is that the thing Karythia/ABW was talking about a little while ago? I've been skipping a lot of the srs discussion on my lists/feed the last few days.

Date: 2010-07-28 07:45 pm (UTC)
trouble: Sketch of Hermoine from Harry Potter with "Bookworms will rule the world (after we finish the background reading)" on it (Default)
From: [personal profile] trouble
This one just started yesterday, I think, and has continued on to a new post today, but it's the second time in the past month and a half that Feministe has been the center of this sort of conversation.

Date: 2010-07-28 07:52 pm (UTC)
ajnabi: cartoonic photomanip of my face (with some body) against a colourful patterned background (Default)
From: [personal profile] ajnabi
yeah, that's definitely one part of this going on. i disagree with that post in a lot of respects but i also disagree with karnythia in quite a few respects -- i do wish people could just treat children like human beings who are just as complex as adults and deserving of respect (no patronization, no assumptions, either about *all children*'s needs, because there isn't any universal there, or about some cultures over other cultures with family and child spaces, etc etc ..) but then, oh wait, privilege, goddamnit.

Date: 2010-07-28 08:42 pm (UTC)
pantryslut: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pantryslut
Yes, somewhere in here there are legitimate and interesting issues to discuss, but the way the Feministe post was framed--ugh, no.

Date: 2010-07-28 08:46 pm (UTC)
pantryslut: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pantryslut
Oh, and that second post! My God.

Date: 2010-07-28 09:25 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] karnythia
When we're talking about a 15 year old in a bar there's a lot of room for debate. But, a 3 year old staying up all night on a mini bar crawl with Mom? I just don't see a lot of wiggle room on that one.

Date: 2010-07-28 09:49 pm (UTC)
ajnabi: cartoonic photomanip of my face (with some body) against a colourful patterned background (Default)
From: [personal profile] ajnabi
I think it depends on how the three year old feels about that. Also, sleep times really vary a lot for different children, and what times they like to sleep (not necessarily diurnal or nocturnal, etc).

Date: 2010-07-28 10:25 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] karnythia
Three year old's will indeed stay up all night if you let them. That doesn't make it a good or healthy idea. They want to be Superman so bad they tie blankets around their necks and jump off buildings. Regardless of how super smart a kid might be they still don't have the capabilities of an adult when it comes to decision making.

Date: 2010-07-28 08:01 pm (UTC)
cereta: Donna Noble (Donna)
From: [personal profile] cereta
I saw that post when it already had 150+ comments and just went...no.

Date: 2010-07-28 08:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oh-annalouise.livejournal.com
It is the most terrible comment thread in the history of comment threads.

I don't think people actually understand how tantrums work.

Date: 2010-07-28 08:07 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] keeva
i am in the karnythia camp here, and also i am really tired of people with economic/social privilege trying to find any excuse to come up with "ZOMG CLASSISM" as a derail, i.e. saying that poor people can't afford sitters or poor people can't afford internet access to locate other moms.

it's a derail not a legitimate argument, and especially blatant when it's someone with internet access going on about poor people and their lack of internet access.

(i read as much as i could stomach of the responses to her on Alas)

Date: 2010-07-28 08:09 pm (UTC)
ithiliana: (Default)
From: [personal profile] ithiliana
i read the post on my feed and did not click over.

i've been hearing variants of this debate since the 1970s.

i cannot stand another one.

*hides under covers*

Date: 2010-07-28 09:32 pm (UTC)
amadi: A bouquet of dark purple roses (Default)
From: [personal profile] amadi
I just can't get over 400+ comments at Feministe, all beating the same "but there are mommies not parenting their nuisance-making chilluns ZOMG!!!11!1!!!" (Because you know most of the time it's moms. It's almost universally moms.) Yeah, sometimes that happens. It's life, get over it.

I'm not even touching the babies in bars thing because that, IMO, was a big derail.

Date: 2010-07-28 09:48 pm (UTC)
hot_tramp: daniel from lost is confused (lost-confused)
From: [personal profile] hot_tramp
It's a HUGE derail. People are deliberately misreading "Let's not exclude children from public spaces" as "It's totally awesome to keep your child up all night and bring them to sexy night clubs!" I don't even know.

Date: 2010-07-28 09:55 pm (UTC)
amadi: A bouquet of dark purple roses (Default)
From: [personal profile] amadi
The bar was so not the point, and not only was that a derail, it was a repulsive show of US-centrism, where the shady dives the commenters seem to favor (where drunks fall on people!) are the only kind of bar that exists in the whole wide world!

Date: 2010-07-29 12:45 am (UTC)
badgerbag: (Default)
From: [personal profile] badgerbag
I liked the one where moms with children in public are holding other people in an "almost hostage situation".

Date: 2010-07-29 01:01 am (UTC)
amadi: A bouquet of dark purple roses (Default)
From: [personal profile] amadi
And a child being loud is the equivalent to assault.

Date: 2010-07-29 12:39 am (UTC)
badgerbag: (Default)
From: [personal profile] badgerbag
Is it ever NOT time for that? Because... *eyeroll*

Date: 2010-07-29 12:52 am (UTC)
badgerbag: (Default)
From: [personal profile] badgerbag
one more thing though. This made me think of my job, and our conference...and how our conferences and parties are always full of moms with kids. Cocktail parties with tons of babies in slings and so on. Also, we run child care and a lactation lounge.

Date: 2010-07-29 01:36 am (UTC)
jesse_the_k: harbor seal's head captioned "seal of approval" (Approval)
From: [personal profile] jesse_the_k
I want to thank WisCon and LJ/DW for introducing me to a delicious mob of moms!

(that is all.)

Date: 2010-07-29 05:42 am (UTC)
aris_tgd: Dureena from Crusade, text: "Thief" (Dureena-thief)
From: [personal profile] aris_tgd
*hides in corner* Feministe is one of the blogs I can read at work, so I saw that post (and read all of the 350 comments at that time in shock), and then the followup came up today and made me want to throw things.

I would really like to have a discussion somewhere on the fucked-uppedness of child-raising in US culture, how other cultures have solutions maybe we could borrow from, and talk about how accessibility for children is a feminist issue. I don't like being told I'm not a part of the movement and have nothing to contribute because I'm not a mother and don't want to be.

Date: 2010-07-28 08:19 pm (UTC)

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