she was cuffed to the truth

Julian Morrison Said:

Cis isn’t offensive. It’s a chemistry term for “on the same side” and opposed to the chemistry term trans, “on opposite sides”. It’s use for people is a non-insulting metaphor and a pun extending from the pre-existing use of “trans”. So basically, anyone getting het up about it is demanding to own the unlabeled default. They don’t want to be treated equally to trans people, they want to be the “normal” ones. Well at that point, there’s nothing more to say except “no”.

His comment was exactly what I was thinking on the subject and very well put.

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Does this mean you've actually learned some things about cis privilege since, oh say, March,

lady_alyria?

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Nope. Still feel the same about that issue.

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Figures.

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Doesn't figure. I know that has more to do with you as a person than your trans status.

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Really, is that all you think it "has to do with"?

A chance for you to make a personal attack on my qualities as a person?

Well, let's look at a quote from the paragraph by someone else you quoted and agreed with:

So basically, anyone getting het up about it is demanding to own the unlabeled default.

And then let's look at how you reacted to the terms "cisgender" and "privilege."

And I'm so tired of "privileged" and "cisgender" being used as insults. People can't help what they are. When the focus is always on whose saying it, no one really pays attention to what's being said.

And:

And yes, I think a lot of times people use who they are as a weapon to the point where you can't even talk to anyone like a rational adult without being called a bigot.

And, when you minimize cis privilege, something that you possess, when talking to trans people about the effects of cis privilege:

You think that you are the only person that has had a hard life? What about the kids on the save the children commercials too weak to bat a fly off their eye. Or people locked up in internment camps? You aren't the end all, be all of human suffering, so grow the hell up and get over yourself. Life is hard. FOR EVERYBODY. Not just the people who are just like you. Compared to a lot of people in this world you are - PRIVILEGED.

And when you declare that your opinion, as a cis person, on whether or not something cis privilege should be elevated over a trans person, in a discussion of cis privilege:

I'm sorry. I think for myself. If I don't see it as an abuse of privilege I'm not going to pretend I do.

And where you use standard privilege-denying tactics to say that cis privilege (which you have) really isn't all that important after all because other oppressions exist:

I wouldn't deny it exist. I deny that it's all encompassing. Even if you have cisprivilege you can still have a buttload of hurdles in life. The way you use the term, it make it sound like because he's cisgender his life must be sunshine and rainbows.

And here's you saying that cis privilege isn't really a privilege for you, it's some disadvantage possessed by trans people because they're in the minority, and to view your status as privileged is laughable:

I'm sorry, it's just that the idea I'm disagreeing with you to protect some kind of privilege I have is just hilarious.

Since, the majority of people are cisgendered it's less of a privilege for me and more of a disadvantage to you. Why would I want to keep you at a disadvantage?

(continued in next reply)

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(continued from previous reply)

And you declaring that calling you out on your cis privilege is "bigotry" against cis people:

See what I mean. I hate how "cisgender" and "privileged" are used as insults. This is pure bigotry.

Read that, and then re-read the quote you supposedly agree with:

Cis isn’t offensive. It’s a chemistry term for “on the same side” and opposed to the chemistry term trans, “on opposite sides”. It’s use for people is a non-insulting metaphor and a pun extending from the pre-existing use of “trans”. So basically, anyone getting het up about it is demanding to own the unlabeled default. They don’t want to be treated equally to trans people, they want to be the “normal” ones. Well at that point, there’s nothing more to say except “no”.

You do follow exactly that model of behavior, everything from getting het up about the terminology -- in a SOP, by-the-book privileged attempt to prevent oppressed people from discussing their oppression and your privilege by taking away the words themselves -- to declaring that the problem isn't that you're privileged, it's that trans people are disadvantaged (i.e., defining yourself as "normal").

You do all of that. I had hoped, when I saw your reply here on

maevele's LJ, that it meant you had reconsidered the nonsense you were spouting earlier this year.

Sadly, you haven't -- since you refuse to recant your privileged bullshit when offered the chance, it's pretty clear that you still stand by it, and think that "cisgender" and "privileged" are terms used by bigoted trans people to insult poor "normal" cis people.

And your only response to me is to call me a bad person who thinks everyone who disagrees on everything is the Enemy. No, sorry, cis lady. You're wallowing in your cis privilege, just as did you in March. Your personal attacks on me won't make it any different.

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I don't think the term cis is offensive. I think it can, and often has been used as a weapon. Like you are doing right now. I don't see how those two beliefs conflict. I don't think there shouldn't be an identifier for non-trans people. Cis works perfectly fine in that regard. But I can also see how some cispeople would come to think that cis is a derogatory term given the context in which it is most often used. For example:

"No, sorry, cis lady."

It's like you are using a regular descriptor to name call. Like had you said,

"No, sorry, black lady."

or

"No, sorry, fat lady."

Both words accurately describe me but it's clear from the context that it's an insult. There is nothing WRONG with being cis anymore than being trans.

I think that's the major difference. You call me cis as if it's something bad. Something I should be ashamed of, that I did wrong. The person whose quote I agreed with was saying that they are equalizing terms.

I see us as equals, you see yourself as my better. When I want you to see my point of view I give reasons for why I feel the way I do. I treat you like I would any other rational human being even though the first thing you ever said to me was "Die in a fire." You tell me I should just accept what you say as Truth because as a cis woman, blinded by my cis privilege I have no way of possibly understanding what brought you to your conclusions. That's the difference between us I don't write people off because of who and what they are.

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You call me cis as if it's something bad. Something I should be ashamed of, that I did wrong.

No, I call you cis privileged as if it's something bad, which it is.

I see us as equals, you see yourself as my better.

Bullshit. You do see yourself as better than me, and you are offended when your cis-privileged perspective is not automatically privileged over mine.

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Yes. Lets debate what I think in my head. Because you most surely know more about MY FEELINGS than I do. You seem to know more about just about everything than I do. Doesn't that seem a bit odd to you?

I explain my perspective and am happy to let people take it or leave it. You just call me names and brow beat me until I just submit to your perspective for no other reason than I don't want to look like a horrible person exercising her cisprivilege. Seems like you are the one offended when people don't simply except whatever you say as gospel truth.

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Your feelings don't matter; your words and your actions do. I'm talking about what you've said and done.

You have been dismissive, every time I've seen you post about it, of the idea that trans people understand anti-trans oppression and cis privilege better than you, a cis-privileged person, view things.

If you're going whine "no fair talking about MY FEELINGS!" then you'd best drop stuff like telling me that I see myself as your better because I'm trans.

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You are right. You only act like you see yourself as my better. I can't say for sure or not if you genuinely do because I'm not in your head.

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I'm better than you because I don't revel in my privilege nearly as much as you do, and that's all.

(Oh, and I'm not stupid.)

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Really, I recall that conversation ending with you apologizing after someone pointed out as a BLACK woman I might have some small idea of what it's like the fear the police. But noooooo...since I'm cis I have no idea what it's like NOT to have the police on my side. Therefore my opinions on the whole situation must come from a place of privilege and therefore be completely invalid.

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You're recalling it wrong, because I didn't apologize at all. In fact, I said that I knew from the beginning that you're a black woman, because I clicked through on your profiles.

The thread certainly didn't end with me apologizing.

So let me see, though:

Really, I recall that conversation ending with you apologizing after someone pointed out as a BLACK woman I might have some small idea of what it's like the fear the police.

Oh, so basically you're saying that as a black person, you might have insights into racism that I, as a white person, lack.

Which is sensible.

And yet you say that when I, as a trans person, discuss cissexism and transphobia -- and say that trans people have a better understanding of it than cis people, blinded by their own cis privilege -- you call that "bigotry" from me.

By this post, you're admitting that, yeah, sometimes the identity of the person speaking may very well make a difference. Even though in other places you accuse me of bigotry for using the very same principle.

Since you'll argue that you're not doing this, because you're stupid, let me show you exactly what's happening here.

Look at your statement here:

But noooooo...since I'm cis I have no idea what it's like NOT to have the police on my side. Therefore my opinions on the whole situation must come from a place of privilege and therefore be completely invalid.

So let's pretend that you and I are arguing about something -- say, POC trans women getting the police called on them -- and I assume you're white. (I didn't, but let's pretend.) And you say, "[some stuff]", and I say "that's wrong and messed up, whitey."

If you then say "ah, but I'm not white! I'm black!" does that make what you said suddenly valid? According to what you wrote above -- i.e., your views on the police are valid because you are black -- the validity of your statements are enhanced due to your race.

And this isn't something I argue against; I do accept that. I certainly have white privilege, and it seriously limits my understanding of racism. However, when trans people say that they understand cis privilege better than trans people, you cry BIGOTRY repeatedly.

You are a hypocrite, and you're stupid.

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apologizing after someone pointed out as a BLACK woman I might have some small idea of what it's like the fear the police.

I'm not the one who said it, another person brought up that argument when they told you to check your white privilege. And after you apologized to me, I told you not to apologize to me just because I'm black. Then you called me names again.

And like in a post down below, my point wasn't that as a black person I'm the end all be all expert on racism. Though of course that's what you'd take from it because that's the way you think. My point was that you recognize no reality but your own, no experiences but your own. To the point that you would argue something as ridiculous as I couldn't possibly understand what it means to fear the police.

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Wow, way to lie about what happened.

Did you forget that the posts are still out there and it's nothing like what you describe?

That, in fact, you demanded an apology for me, and got one, and then laughed in my face?

You're a fucking idiot. And you're quite transphobic.

(Also, never once did I say that you couldn't understand what it's like to fear the police. I said you couldn't understand what it's like to fear the police because of being trans, idiot.)

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Pointing out that you are being oppressive and exercising cis privilege not the same as "writing people off because of who and what they are."

You are clueless. You don't understand what anyone else is talking about when they discuss privilege. You only feel defensive because you assume that someone saying you are a "cis lady" is insulting you, rather than identifying your use (and abuse) of cis privilege.

maevele is cis, and I don't call her "cis lady" with any regularity. The only times I'd do it is when I need to point out that she's acting privileged and is blinded by her own cis privilege.

It's bullshit to accuse me of "reverse bigotry" or whatever by saying that I think trans people are "better" than cis people. I've said nothing of the sort, and it's the kind of bigoted, privileged argument that lots of privileged bigots make routinely.

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So if she is cis and you DON'T call her cis lady, that means you ARE using it as an insult. So for someone who has only heard the word directed it at them as an insult, is it surprising that they would think it's insulting?

You might not have said it directly, but by your own admission you've been using the word cis to point out a cisperson's ignorance. So why wouldn't I assume you think you are better when you are using to term to let them know how much more knowledgeable you are than them.

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How ELSE do you expect someone to point out cis privilege being used WITHOUT using the word "cis"?

You're an idiot,

lady_alyria. You were in March, and you still are. You can't even see that you are contradicting the person you agreed with, because you are so desperate to pretend like trans people are being bigoted and mean against you.

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I don't think trans people are being bigoted and mean. I think YOU are. You don't seem to understand that distinction.

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So you think I am bigoted against cisgender people, is that what you're saying?

I don't think cis people are necessarily bigoted or stupid either. I just think YOU are.

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That's funny. Because when you want to point out my "stupidity" you remind me that I'm "cis" as if the two words are interchangeable. And you just admitted you do that to other cis people, even the ones you consider friends when they "step outta line".

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No, you're cis AND stupid.

There is no way to remind someone that they are acting out of cis privilege and tossing around cissexism without telling them they are cis.

It's like (but not identical to) if you try to tell me I am being racist without ever addressing that I'm white.

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Have I called you white in a derogatory way, ever?

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Have you ever called me out for being a racist asshat?

No -- and in fact you've praised me for NOT being racist toward you.

The fact that I haven't been racist enough for you to call out doesn't mean that when you say cissexist bullshit, you get to invoke some sort of false reciprocity and demand that I don't point out your cis privilege.

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it's more like she doesn't need to remind me of my cis privilege by calling me cis unless I fuck up and seem to forget how privileged I am and wave it around. Just like until I do something full of white privilege, no one needs to be like 'nice privilege, white lady'

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Even if you did something full of white privilege I still wouldn't say something like that to you. I don't blame you for being white, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with being white, so why would I use it as a derogatory term?

I have more respect for you than that, and I would hope that giving you reasons I thought you were exercising white privilege would make you re-examine whatever you were doing in a new light.

Like when half my friend's list couldn't see what was racist about the comic where the police officers shot the monkey. I didn't go, CHECK YOUR WHITE PRIVILEGE YA WHITE MCWHITTIES! I explained why *I* thought it was racist, and realized people with entirely different life experiences than my own might see it different. Some of my friends got what I was saying and agreed it was racist. Some still didn't agree. I didn't demand they agree because I'm black and they are white and I'm the expert on what's racist and what isn't. I didn't think they were stupid. I just figured they didn't/couldn't see things the same way I did regarding that particular instance and moved on.

Have you noticed that every time you attempt to translate these issues into race ones to enlighten me it never works? My thought process is consistent if not popular with the far left.

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Yes, your thought processes are consistently stupid.

maevele, why's this person your friend? You're usually a better judge of character.

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Yes. Brow beat her into defriending me. That's always the next step with you. If you can't silence me with insults, silence me by getting me kicked off her LJ. Don't forget to give

shemale a talking to too, she for some strange reason sees value in me as a human being also.

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Yeah, I've got so much power.

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Someone's presence on my friendslist does not in any way imply an endorsement of their views, only that they say things i want to read for some reason. I'm pretty sure I added her originally for bein clever in Stupid Free, and I don't defriend people because I disagree with them, unless they are hopeless fucknuts.

I even give some people i think are hopeless fucknuts a bunch of chances, in case they get it eventually. I mean, I dropped shtrly et al, but have kept people more, um, problematic than Alyria has ever been.

I'm only going to be on sporadically, if at all, until next wednesday, so I won't be able to tell if this gets out of hand and make up a moderation policy to deal with it, so y'all fight amongst yerselves. nobody stab anybody.

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I'll just stop interacting for now.

And no, I don't mean ZOMG U MUST SHUN THIS PERSON. Despite her paranoia otherwise.

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but it's still not derogatory in that usage, just a reminder. just a 'hey, yr speaking from privileged position' imo. It totally shouldn't be anyone else's job to point out the details of how I'm being privileged, if they've already done me the favor of pointing out I am speaking from privilege.

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That's because you are a far more lenient person than I. "You should know what you did" argument is for 1950s housewives. If I'm spending time around someone, I'm working on the assumption that they aren't out to hurt me, so if they do, I'm going to guess it's by mistake, and they aren't aware of it.

I don't think as a black person it's my job to educate white people about racism. But if they are part of my circle either they are worth my time, or they shouldn't be part of my circle anymore.

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softestbullet (from livejournal.com)

So if she is cis and you DON'T call her cis lady, that means you ARE using it as an insult. ... You might not have said it directly, but by your own admission you've been using the word cis to point out a cisperson's ignorance.

No, no, no. Cis isn't an insult; it's a piece of information that is sometimes relevant.

If I (white person) said "Shut up, white lady," to another white person who was being annoying in some non-race-related way, I would be using "white" as an insult, because it wasn't relevant. Or, at least, it would be weird.

kynn doesn't say, "Hey cis lady, I like your non-trans-issues-related icon" (or whatever), because cisness has nothing to do with that situation.

But, situations when a cis person is being cissexist/transphobic/transmisogynist? Their cis status is relevant. There are things we do not and cannot understand because we are cis & there are specific privileges we get because we are cis. It's not weird/unnecessary/mean to bring it up. It's a vital piece of information.

At worst, it's a rebuke, like, "Hey, remember, you have this privilege." Or, "Hey, remember, you're not the unmarked 'normal' one." But that's not an attack; it's the truth.

Part of the reason it seems that way, more than "white" or "male," is that cissupremecists don't go around saying, "Cis people are the best! Cis = awesome!" They don't want to even admit trans people exist, so why would they identify with a word meaning not-trans? Cissexism is based on the idea that there are normal people, real women and real men, and then there are these other weirdos. So yeah, you don't hear a lot of use of the word outside of discussions of privilege, because to use it is to accept that cis and trans folk are equals.

(Here from Caoimhe's DW -- hope that's ok, maevele)

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I can kinda see what you are saying, but there is a certain tone people take when they are attacking you and that's the tone she uses every time she talks to me. And calls me cis like a little kid would call someone a mean name.

In a discussion about privilege I don't need to be reminded of what I am. It's not like I forgot. And when I talk to people about white privilege I don't call them white in the same tone as she called me cis. Though I have seen black people that do, and they tend to think all white people are evil and racist.

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Yes, that's what Autumn was doing -- but coming from a cis person, this is again a cis person telling trans people they're doing it wrong in fighting oppression.

This is my point exactly. You agree with the message but disagree with the messenger. To me, the truth is the truth regardless of where it's coming from. You and a cisperson can say the exact same thing word for word and you are right and they are an asshole exerting their cisprivilege. How is that NOT bigotry?

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Sorry, you are too stupid here to explain this to. Scoot along, the adults are talking.

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Remember earlier when I said sometimes you say things that make me feel you think you're better than me...

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Oh, I definitely am better than you, dearie. (See, that's condescension, too, from me.)

But the thing is, your accusation was that I think I'm better than you because I'm trans and you're cis. Not because I'm better than you because I'm smart and you're stupider than shit.

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The point she makes is an excellent one, but people are listening precisely because she is cis.

I had been saying the same damn thing for a long time along with many many other trans women, but, let's face it, cis voices carry farther and are taken more seriously than trans women's voices. This is why you see so many copies of this post floating around, and none of mine ;-)

People who deny it's existence usually have a rather distorted idea of what "privilege" really means.

Privilege is about what one DOES NOT have, and most misinformed folks think it is about what one DOES have.

Cis privilege is being able to take a shit in a public restroom without a court battle or a beatdown by the cops...or having to worry about it.

etc etc

Cis privilege is about a cis person stomping into a space and denying that it exists, or declaring that his/her experience trumps those who actually live this shit, rather than pontificate abstractly on an Internet forum.

Not having to fight every shithead from here to Lampansas for the right to describe yourself without interference is cis privilege.

I could go on, of course, but the article was pretty damn plain for anybody with open eyes.

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I was thinking as I was reading it that it really was just a rephrasing of what you had said over and over, with a new metaphor, but it might seem more palatable for the privileged coming from the privileged point of view. Because that's just always how it works, innit? someone in the oppressed class says something over and over, and people don't listen, or claim they're too angry, or whatever. But once someone who shares the privilege in question says the same thing, boom, they get it.

I've been the white girl repeating things POC keep saying that gets it through to white folk before, so i'm kinda used to the pattern, and will use it, even though it pisses me the fuck off.

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and it helps to have a privileged voice carry them.

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One of the privileges I think people don't think much about, is the privilege of just being heard.

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that's why I did the flawed maneuver of invoking a cis voice to say what trans women had said 1000000 times before.

Kynn makes alot of sense below. really. i knew this, and did it anyway, because, cis people are reliably stupid about trans women. Always.

For us, it's the cost of doing any business with you.

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Hard words are often necessary ones..
and it helps to have a privileged voice carry them.

Yeah, I'm honestly pretty ambivalent about having played "cis chick explains it all" on that thread, but once the OP started talking more about Oliver's tone than his argument, it seemed like it was going nowhere fast. :c/

But hell, this is coming from the one who had to tell my boss that paying the cis chick to co-facilitate the campus "trans people and allies" group and not paying the trans guy was seven kinds of fucked up. Because when the trans guy said it, he was just being greedy. So I should be used to saying obvious things to stupid people, even though they should have heard them the first hundred times, when the right people said them more eloquently and from personal experience.

Sorry. I'm vomiting my irritation all over this thread, and I probably shouldn't be, but I'm coming off a migraine (partially Femmessay induced) and having trouble thinking of a more coherent way to put this.

Bottom line, privilege is a signal-booster, and while it disgusts me that it should be necessary to use it that way, I feel like cis people who are capable of doing so non-stupidly have an obligation to amplify the message where needed.

(We also have an obligation to shut up and realize when it's being broadcast load and clear without our help, which takes more work, at least for me.)

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Well, you have seen my posts on microwave lenses, haven't you?

If there's one thing I know, it's how and when to bust out the high gain equipment. Not getting myself nuked by the sidelobes is a lil harder.

Anyway, woman is engaging the trans men and not the trans women, for all the stupid, usual reasons.

Yeahs...who the fuck is your boss, and what is her major malfunction, anyway?

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Well, you have seen my posts on microwave lenses, haven't you?

Don't think I've gotten that far in the archives yet. Too busy savoring the image of gloves+heels+skirt+lathe. ;c) (And popping Darvocet, instead of going to bed and stopping staring at the screen like a smart person.)

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smiles...I will definitely post piccys.

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Oh! You meant *literal* microwave lenses. Well, hot damn.

Also, I missed this the first time around:

who the fuck is your boss, and what is her major malfunction, anyway?

... but I expect by now you won't be wanting the list. ;c)

[This, btw, is Boss 1. Boss 2 is Deaf Professor Lady, who is a total rockstar.]

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Yeah, that's one thing I noticed about that post. Cis people automatically have more "credibility" when talking about trans issues.

I didn't link to it on my blog because of three reasons. (1) The people who read my blog already know (or should know) that from reading what I wrote, and they don't need some nice cis lady to explain it to them. (2) I don't want to endorse the idea that we need cis "interpreters" to be the good cops and explain things rather than letting trans people speak for ourselves.

And (3), which may be ironic, I really can't endorse the way in which she told off Autumn Sandeen. Autumn was clearly wrong and I said that, but it's also cis privileged -- in a post about cis privilege -- for a nice cis lady to take the role of scolding a trans woman and saying "it’s way too early in the trans-movement for a scab whose willing to sell the rest of the movement upriver just to keep the peace with the oppressors."

Yes, that's what Autumn was doing -- but coming from a cis person, this is again a cis person telling trans people they're doing it wrong in fighting oppression. Autumn's fuckups should be dealt with by trans people, and not by cis people saying she's hurting The Cause (which the nice cis lady admits to not being very aware of, due to her privilege) and sanctimoniously lecturing Autumn.

Even if that nice cis lady is correct, it's still wrong, just like it's wrong whenever I get worked up with my own white privilege and stupidly think I can lecture POC about being "house negroes" or whatever. It's not my place as part of the privileged oppressors to condescendingly tell the oppressed people that they're Doing It Wrong by not fighting (my!) oppression and instead going along with it to maintain what few perks are allowed to them under a bigotry-driven system.

And likewise, it's not cool for a nice cis lady, in the middle of making an excellent point about cis privilege, to launch into a criticism of how Autumn has chosen to maintain her status at PHB by appeasing the cis people with power. It's out of place and she has no standing (personal experience) from which to castigate Autumn on this point.

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FYI, the blog itself has been taken down. I've copied the post, though, so if you want it for quoting purposes, lemme know. [Although I agree that the stuff about Autumn - and some of the comments afterwards - took the bloom off the rose a little, the gun analogy was powerfully written, and I'd like to be able to float it around, properly attributed, from time to time. Especially because my cis gay male boss is a jackass.]

Also, I was M.E. over there. ;c)

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... sad, too, because it means I didn't get to thwack that Jesse "*I* don't think trans women are men, but other people do, which means they have male privilege, which means they are de facto men in the movement" character the way he so richly deserved. I had a nice little rant all written out and everything.

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Feel free to share over at my LJ...I put up a cap, and you can also add your own.

I swear...cis homos and feminists are why we can't have nice things, and it gets old. Come on over, and fire when ready.

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oh lawd..why didn't you say so?

Cis fags are some of the most hateful close-minded people you ever did see. They are a bad scene for any civil rights endeavor.

Any way you can trade him in for somebody who treats trans women and men like, you know, human beings?

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Unfortunately, of the two people who interviewed for the job, it was him and a cis granola-dyke with time-management issues. Terrifyingly, he was actually the better person for the job. *shudder*

I'll point out that he wasn't paying my co-mod ("J.") because last year, J. was being paid under a separate budget - that of the campus Transgender Liaison, rather than the budget for the discussion-group facilitators. However, Mr. Bossman cut the position of Trans Liaison (after using J. all year as Photocopy Boy, and thus deeming him unnecessary to campus queer life), and didn't write him into the discussion-group budget instead.

::headdesk::

Honestly, to call him hateful would be to credit him with too much clue.

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well, that is exactly why cis homos scare me. We are not human to them, just expendable and exploitable.

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Yeah, without getting into gruesome and derailing detail, I think I prefer situations in which I've experienced overt hatred to those in which I've experienced invisibilization. (<--- it's a word now!)

It's really the *personal touch* that counts, innit?

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big time. At least you have the muzzle flash to aim for.

The invisible attacks are like nerve agents...you never know what hit ya til it's too late.

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Cis fags are some of the most hateful close-minded people you ever did see.

If I ever uttered something like this about trans people every person in this thread both trans and cis would come down upon me like Armageddon. People have suggested defriending me for politely disagreeing with them. Yet you say something this hateful and people are nodding so hard their necks are about to break.

How is this any different than the assumptions made about trans people?

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It's called the cold, hard voice of experience of deadly oppression at the hands of cis homosexuals.

so, while my assessment is backed up by histiry, and has had frequent deadly consequences for trans women, you are simply barging in here with hurt feelings.

That is the difference.

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BUT CIS PPL HAVE FEELINGS TOO!

sorry had to beat her to the punch playing the cis card.

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The only think I feel is disappointment. And maybe some anger at the hypocrisy.

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just covering the bases.

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its about the relationship. voz has no institutional power to call in over a cis fag. with trans people, YOU do.

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Now I understand. It's okay to stereotype and dehumanize as long as I don't have institutional power over that group. Wow, as a poor black queer female I can prejudge oodles of people!

I'm sorry, but bullshit.

Know who the system is made up of? Us. The system isn't just a bunch of rich white heterosexual cis-men. Every single person contributes to a system that oppresses so many. There aren't enough rich white heterosexual cis-men in the world to keep everyone down. One minority keeps down the other and vice versa. Buying into this crap is what keeps the system running.

Maybe Voz doesn't have any institutional power, but maybe someone that reads this thread does. Maybe next time they are interviewing people for positions somewhere in the back of their mind they remember what Voz said and even though they can't put their finger on why, the gay man that applied for the job just doesn't seem the "right fit".

You can't just be like "I'm a victim to the big bad system and therefore not responsible for what I say or do" when your actions perpetuate the big bad system.

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"poor black queer female" you forgot to mention your also an olympic gymnast of cis privilege. Those were some fancy back flips. but no I do not believe that a homophobe is going to listen to a woman who is queer and trans and decide to bring their homophobia into the workplace because of what she said.

and she wasn't "keeping another minority down" she was calling out ppl who share the experience of being queer for their cis and male privilege. thats pretty different from you saying something transphobic.

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She wasn't calling out anyone, unless she knows all gay cismen in the world personally.

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nor does she believe in privilege. So, she cannot accurately understand or reply in any meaningful way to anything you or I say. This is why she is talking about hypotheticals as trumping the systemic amnd specific reality of cis homo on trans discrimination discussed here.
To her, talking about cis gay on trans hate is pointless, because, when a gay man exploits a trans man, our kicking and screaming aboput it here needs to be called out, not the original discrimination with very real effects because she is more interested in starting pointless shit than addressing real problems.

ignore her, and she will go away to deny trans lives elsewhere in favor of butthurt gay dude feeeeelllinngs.

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I do believe in institutional power and privilege.

But other than that, you are right. Short of me having massive brain damage I am no more likely to see things your way than I would a bunch of red necks. Because you all stink of the same hatred, petty judgments and bigotry. You just use different terminology to propagate the same tripe.

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just rednecks? what about hicks, hillbillies and white trash?

I have family in southern appalachia that I give more credit that they' be able do grasp concept of cis privilege than I do you. So why don't you back off the assumptions of how they smell?

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Nobody is cis and male privileged unless we've experienced it personally.

this is why its so important for us to always record our experiences in the International Registry of Cisgendered Persons.

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