weird abortion discussion

[maevele]

this is all [lj user=mystickeeper] 's fault, but I know I have people on here who ID as "pro-life" besides her.

I keep running into people who say they are prolife, but respect those who are not. Doesn't that imply that you then respect their right to abort legally and safely, even if you disagree with abortion? and wouldn't that mean that you are anti-abortion but prochoice?

Also, if you are "prolife but respectful of those who aren't" do you vote for anti-abortion candidates ho'd like to change the law? if so, how do you reconcile that with the "respectful of choices?" and if not, how are you "prolife?"


It's just coming to me that "prolife but respectful and nonpressuring" is the flipside/new "prochoice but I could never have an abortion."

Because seriously, to me "prolife" as in the movement, means trying to change the law to make abortion illegal or stop women from aborting somehow, and "prochoice" means trying to keep it legal, period.

Comments

[naomikritzer]

I know people who identify as pro-life, but who mean by that, "I think abortion is a bad thing, and I would like to try to reduce the number of abortions." Most of these people are interested in ensuring that men and women have access to reliable contraception, health care (so that no one would ever be in a situation where they could imagine paying off the abortion, but not the hospital bill for the birth), and things like that.

I also know people who identify as pro-choice who hold pretty much this exact same set of views.

Go figure, eh?

[ethora.livejournal.com]

No lie, I had these exact same questions floating in my mind yesterday.

[cantkeepsilent.livejournal.com]

I'm just a stranger trolling flists in the middle of the night, but I'm a person who decided that despite not changing my opinions or my vote, that I was ultimately more comfortable self-identifying as pro-life. I am, as you suggest, in favor of easily-available contraception, nigh-compulsory comprehensive sex education for everyone, freer access to adoption and excellent pre-natal care for everyone, and the right of a woman to have a fetus removed from her body. (I'm also in favor of other fundamental rights for the living, including the right to medically-assisted suicide and an opposition to capital punishment.)

All the same, I look at a blastocyst and I agree with my political critics that it is alive and it is human, and I am leery of being the sort who denies the unalienable rights to some living humans on the grounds that they're not really people like you and I are. In historical terms, that seems like a losing philosophy. So, as much as I can, I want to do right by the unborn. That's obviously not much, because a pregnant woman who feels that her fetus is a parasite also has rights that need to be considered, so at the moment abortion is the least offensive solution I can think of for the impasse. I do believe that we can and should treat the aborted fetus as something more sacred than medical waste, and I also think that using the fetus in embryonic stem cell research is as ethically questionable as any medical experimentation using the corpse of a non-consenting person.

My guess is that the differences between "pro-choice" and "pro-life but..." are going to be more stark in twenty years. If, say, the age of viability were to drop to fourteen weeks, then we should at least consider a sea change from thinking about abortion as the termination of a fetus to considering it as the preservation of the fetus' life outside the woman's body. That's undeniably a great blow to the rights of a woman who wanted an abortion because she didn't want to become a mother, but it seems to me that at that point *it* would the least objectionable solution to the impasse. Of course, there are a thousand ethical dilemmas at that point too, and I trust that I will be as unstubborn about my beliefs as I currently am, but I do believe that the fetus deserves a metaphorical seat at the table when discussing the disposition of its future and that the right to choose might someday be yielded if there are ever better choices than there currently are.

Wow, seriously tl;dr there. Maybe I can get to sleep now. ^_^

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

Yay, my fault!

I know that what I'm about to say doesn't make much sense to people who disagree with me, but I'll make this clear: If there was a referendum to outlaw abortion, I would vote in favor of outlawing it.

I am okay with voting for political candidates who happen to be pro-choice because there is a plethora of other issues I care about, especially those relating to life - I am against the death penalty, I want candidates who care about homeless people, I want candidates who care about giving good educations to children, etc. All of these issues are important to the value of life. Abortion is an important issue, yes, but it disgusts me how this single issue drives so many people's decisions to vote (making phone calls for various politicians, there are plenty of people who will ask me point-blank if the candidate is pro-life, I will answer, and they will say, "Well I guess you know who I'm voting for." This is scary to me. For me, voting for a candidate is a lot more important than any single issue.

I get how people can be pro-choice politically and would choose to be pro-life themselves, but that is not me.

[maevele.livejournal.com]

Without picking a big fight, how do you reconcile respecting those who are prochoice with wanting to vote to make abortion illegal?

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

[I am also not trying to pick a fight, but sometimes in writing I am too blunt. So if this reads as mean....please don't take it that way!]

I guess the same way I reconcile respecting people who happen to be pro-death penalty. Those people who support the death penalty will probably never be in a position in which they decide whether or not somebody should receive the death penalty (assuming it's legal wherever they are). They can be pro-death penalty for various reasons, but I still think that murder is wrong, even if if some sick fucker skins your baby and eats it while making you watch.

I think it's really hard to talk about in terms of respect, etc. because the most obvious divide is whether or not a person believes the fetus is alive/abortion is murder. Since the two (or however many) camps don't agree on this point, issues like respect and value for the body mean different things to both sides. I understand why someone who is pro-choice would think that my vote to make abortion illegal (on a referendum) is disrespectful to her body, but I also recognize that the two of us have different value systems for evaluating bodies.

[maevele.livejournal.com]

Let's you and I agree that neither of us are trying to pick a fight, deal? Because these things are really hard to keep civil, but I'm actually trying to grasp your point of view, even though it may come off as antagonist, k?

But, I just don't get how you can respect what someone believes, and vote to make them a criminal if they act on that belief.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

I guess I would be forced to admit that while I respect the person, I wouldn't respect the belief. Like, I respect my dad because he's my dad, but I don't respect his beliefs that white people are superior to other races. Does this make sense? Like, I've never found someone who agrees with all of my political beliefs, even the ones that are passionately personal. I still respect the people, even if I don't respect all of their political beliefs.

[maevele.livejournal.com]

okay. on this note, I think we may as well drop this.

I still respect you, as well, although your belief that my belief is wrong would cause you to vote to make me a criminal. But I can't see how to continue this respectfully now that you've basically said that being prochoice is wrong in the same way as being racist, and that you don't actually respect my beliefs, only that it doesn't prevent you from respecting me. FTR, I have to admit I don't exactly respect your belief either, as it involves taking rights away from me, only your right to it.

[nmdrkangl.livejournal.com]

i'm pro-pie.

[maevele.livejournal.com]

Mmmmm...pie

[shana-etel.livejournal.com]

Here's the thing. I, personally, could never have an abortion. I just don't feel right about that. But, and this is a big but, I would never ever tell anyone else what is right for them. Reproductive choice is immensely important to me and as someone whose pregnancies have all been bumpy and nigh well disastrous having all options on the table is very important. I identify as pro choice.