the problem with dollhouse

[maevele]

is that everyone is expecting it to be truly feminist and stuff just because Joss is more feminist than the average Scifi TV wankers.

but it's still commercial television, and although Joss tries, he's still pretty 101.

if you watch it not expecting much from a feminist standpoint, it's not so bad. compareed to typical network tv.

I'm at least gonna give it a chance.

Comments

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

He makes Buffy and now he's a feminist?

[maevele.livejournal.com]

well, i guess that's why people are expecting feminist work from him.

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

Geez, yes some of his female characters are strong, but lots of fiction has strong female characters. Especially when they are wearing slinky clothes and kicking the bad guys in the head.

[miriam-heddy.livejournal.com]

I think it's more that he's explicitly identified as feminist and written things like this.

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

Wow, that was well written. And I'm glad people think he's a feminist because he said he's one. Not because Buffy kicks ass, and yes, Buffy does kick ass.

Though I can't see how people think he betrayed his values with Dollhouse, didn't seem like it at all.

[kayjayoh.livejournal.com]

Though I can't see how people think he betrayed his values with Dollhouse, didn't seem like it at all.

Well, some people are always ready to say "OMG!! Ur doin it wrong!!" if someone doesn't completely match X, Y, or Z ideal.

I certainly don't think Whedon is 100% perfectly feminist or non-exploitive in everything he does. He's done a number of things in all of his shows that have made me shake my head sadly and say, "Oh Joss, you dumbass. What where you thinking?"

As for Dollhouse I am sitting on the fence about whether I like it or not. Having only seen one episode, I'd like to see a few more before forming an opinion. It didn't blow me away, but it didn't offend me either. Of the things that might possibly set me a'twinging, I'd like to see where he goes with them. (Provided he even gets a chance to develop the themes and push at tropes, that is. I have little faith in FOX.)

[lady-alyria.livejournal.com]

Actually, Dollhouse is way better than I expected given the premise. It's like the Pretender, but without having the added interest of trying to escape the bad guys and the main character being super smart and cool. Until she's reprogrammed she's a dull ass blank slate.

I didn't know how this show would work given it has no conflict. The first episode at least managed to work in the conflict of wiping her before the job is done or not. Don't know what they are going to do to make the next episode not suck.

[mystickeeper.livejournal.com]

I'll be going with the "give it a chance" option, too.

[ide-cyan.livejournal.com]

I'm not expecting it to be "truly feminist and stuff". I'm just expecting it not to be so fucking sexist. Compared to typical network TV? It's bad next to Law & Order: SVU, the only other network TV show that has so much rape and prostitution as its premise. At least on SVU the regular female characters are fighting crime -- without brainwashing.

[maevele.livejournal.com]

compared to a lot of action/scifi tv, at least it has women, and there's room in the premise for it to be anti-exploitey, although it hasn't yet.

[bifemmefatale.livejournal.com]

Do you think it would be possible to make a TV show exploring sex trafficking that would be both entertaining and not glorifying the industry? (This is an honest question I've been pondering.)

[azzy23.livejournal.com]

I'm actually expecting it to be moreso as Echo becomes more aware.

What's really sad here though is that Whedon is feminist, but his shows are only considered that way because the main character is often female (re: Buffy, Echo, Ripley in Aliens).

Firefly comes under a lot of fire because one of his characters is a prostitute, but under the surface she is a strong, educated, genteel woman with a heart of steel. And the main storyline revolves around protecting and assisting a victimized woman (River) who also carries hidden inner strength. He also breaks the mold with Kaylee doing a 'man's' job, while presenting us with an example of a man who doesn't meet the traditional male husband role (Wash) and a woman who is strong, gorgeous, and does 'manly' things without losing femininity (Zoe).

Malcolm is interesting, because he's a hateless misogynist. Meaning he fits in, and sometimes perpetuates, tropes. But does so out of ignorance, and a twisted sense of protecting those he cares for (who mostly happen to be women). He's a man who recognizes the power of women, but still desires to shield them. As a feminist I'd be okay with that kind of man, but I know eventually it would piss me off.

Echo is very much an Inara, and her handler is very much a Malcolm (as far as stereotypes go). I'm interested to see where he takes the other archtypes he's known to explore, and how he explores the concept of 'self' in a person who has had 'self' removed.

[bifemmefatale.livejournal.com]

Agreed to the first sentence--Joss said on Fresh Air the other day that the first ep is one of the weakest.

[azzy23.livejournal.com]

Well originally, the first ep didn't exist. The next ep should be the original first ep.

[raanve]

I was not crazy about the pilot episode, but then I think (like mystickeeper mentioned in her post on the pilot), that Whedon pilots are often weak and that the strength of these shows comes more out of the relationships & dynamics that take a few episodes to establish.

I think that Whedon does a decent enough job with feminist issues, but I agree that he is sort of at the 101 level. I wish I could remember what it was he said in his interview on Fresh Air last week that made me groan and roll my eyes, because it was just so... dude... take it down a notch and go do some reading. I think there is a fine line to tread between striving for feminist messages in your creative work and acting as if you are the feminist savior of spec fic on TV. But maybe that's just me being picky.

I'm willing to give Dollhouse another few weeks, I see the seeds there of something interesting -- and even if it's totally maddening and made of FAIL, at least it'll give me something to talk about at WisCon. ;)